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Author Topic: Schism would not be a disaster  (Read 1758 times)

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Offline poche

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Schism would not be a disaster
« on: January 13, 2016, 12:13:14 AM »
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  • The primates of the 38 ecclesial communities of the Anglican Communion gathered in Canterbury at Archbishop Justin Welby’s invitation on January 11. The six-day meeting began with Evensong in Canterbury Cathedral. Likely agenda items include ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, women’s ordination, the protection of minors, and the environment. Addressing concerns that some African primates may leave over the issue of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, Archbishop Welby told BBC that “a schism would not be a disaster.” “God is bigger than our failures, but it would be a failure,” he said. “Certainly I want reconciliation, but reconciliation doesn't always mean agreement-- in fact, it very seldom does. It means finding ways to disagree well, and that's what we've got to do this week.” Archbishop Welby added that “there's nothing I can do if people decide that they want to leave the room. It won't split the communion.”

    - See more at: http://www.catholic culture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=27153#sthash.QSidVgPq.dpuf

    This attitude toward schism is an example of the difference between the indifferentist Protestant mentality and the Catholic Church


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 12:54:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    The primates of the 38 ecclesial communities of the Anglican Communion gathered in Canterbury at Archbishop Justin Welby’s invitation on January 11. The six-day meeting began with Evensong in Canterbury Cathedral. Likely agenda items include ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, women’s ordination, the protection of minors, and the environment. Addressing concerns that some African primates may leave over the issue of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, Archbishop Welby told BBC that “a schism would not be a disaster.” “God is bigger than our failures, but it would be a failure,” he said. “Certainly I want reconciliation, but reconciliation doesn't always mean agreement-- in fact, it very seldom does. It means finding ways to disagree well, and that's what we've got to do this week.” Archbishop Welby added that “there's nothing I can do if people decide that they want to leave the room. It won't split the communion.”

    - See more at: http://www.catholic culture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=27153#sthash.QSidVgPq.dpuf

    This attitude toward schism is an example of the difference between the indifferentist Protestant mentality and the Catholic Church


    The Anglicans are already in schism and have been for several hundred years.
    As someone told me, "Schismatics got to schism."
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline OHCA

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #2 on: January 13, 2016, 03:47:31 AM »
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  • "Likely agenda items include ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, women’s ordination, the protection of minors, and the environment."

    Are they talking about Frank's next synod shindig?

    Offline poche

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #3 on: January 13, 2016, 03:49:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    "Likely agenda items include ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, women’s ordination, the protection of minors, and the environment."

    Are they talking about Frank's next synod shindig?


    No, this is the Protestant shindig where they will fight it out and then because there is no legitimate authority they will all go home and do as they like.
     

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #4 on: January 13, 2016, 04:09:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: OHCA
    "Likely agenda items include ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, women’s ordination, the protection of minors, and the environment."

    Are they talking about Frank's next synod shindig?


    No, this is the Protestant shindig where they will fight it out and then because there is no legitimate authority they will all go home and do as they like.
     


    The irony here is glaring.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #5 on: January 13, 2016, 05:13:11 AM »
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  • Quote

    Addressing concerns that some African primates may leave over the issue of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, Archbishop Welby told BBC that “a schism would not be a disaster.” “God is bigger than our failures, but it would be a failure,” he said.

    This "schism" would not be a disaster but it would be a failure.  The failure would consist in how it would give the public impression that there is some kind of division, because public impression is all that matters to them.  Appearances are everything.

    Quote
    “Certainly I want reconciliation, but reconciliation doesn't always mean agreement-- in fact, it very seldom does. It means finding ways to disagree well, and that's what we've got to do this week.” Archbishop Welby added that “there's nothing I can do if people decide that they want to leave the room. It won't split the communion.”


    Their definition of schism is the current Anglican assembly would become divided, regardless of their association with the Roman Catholic/Vatican.  It seems that could include a segment of them becoming accommodated by Rome, whereby they would be in schism with the Anglicans who do not associate with Rome.

    "Finding ways to disagree well" means "We agree to disagree."  Protestants have been doing this for decades.  Ultimately, the Anglicans who reconcile with Rome would like to do so on their own terms, such that they can agree to disagree with Rome on doctrine.  Therefore, for Rome to admit entire Anglican congregations (which has been happening) is done without the Anglicans needing to abjure their longstanding error(s).

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline poche

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #6 on: January 13, 2016, 05:38:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote

    Addressing concerns that some African primates may leave over the issue of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, Archbishop Welby told BBC that “a schism would not be a disaster.” “God is bigger than our failures, but it would be a failure,” he said.

    This "schism" would not be a disaster but it would be a failure.  The failure would consist in how it would give the public impression that there is some kind of division, because public impression is all that matters to them.  Appearances are everything.

    Quote
    “Certainly I want reconciliation, but reconciliation doesn't always mean agreement-- in fact, it very seldom does. It means finding ways to disagree well, and that's what we've got to do this week.” Archbishop Welby added that “there's nothing I can do if people decide that they want to leave the room. It won't split the communion.”


    Their definition of schism is the current Anglican assembly would become divided, regardless of their association with the Roman Catholic/Vatican.  It seems that could include a segment of them becoming accommodated by Rome, whereby they would be in schism with the Anglicans who do not associate with Rome.

    "Finding ways to disagree well" means "We agree to disagree."  Protestants have been doing this for decades.  Ultimately, the Anglicans who reconcile with Rome would like to do so on their own terms, such that they can agree to disagree with Rome on doctrine.  Therefore, for Rome to admit entire Anglican congregations (which has been happening) is done without the Anglicans needing to abjure their longstanding error(s).

    .


    What you are saying is not true. Reconciliation with Rome means agreement on all of the Catholic doctrines.

    Offline TKGS

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #7 on: January 13, 2016, 06:26:12 AM »
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  • The attitude displayed by the Anglicans in this article seem to be pretty much the same attitude we find in the Conciliar sect.  I don't see the difference that is being discussed.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #8 on: January 13, 2016, 01:26:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    The attitude displayed by the Anglicans in this article seem to be pretty much the same attitude we find in the Conciliar sect.  I don't see the difference that is being discussed.


    With each passing synod of the Anglicans, they are going further and further away from the truth.
    Already some of their churches are being used as mosques.

    Will they now incorporate prayers to the Muslim god and other false gods to promote the New One World Religion?
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #10 on: January 14, 2016, 05:23:14 PM »
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  • Has the Episcopal Church in America has been excommunicated?

    First this announcement today: http://www.anglican.ink/article/primates-suspend-episcopal-church-full-participation-anglican-communion

    Now this: http://www.primates2016.org/articles/2016/01/14/statement-primates-2016/

       
    Quote
    However given the seriousness of these matters we formally acknowledge this distance by requiring that for a period of three years The Episcopal Church no longer represent us on ecuмenical and interfaith bodies, should not be appointed or elected to an internal standing committee and that while participating in the internal bodies of the Anglican Communion, they will not take part in decision making on any issues pertaining to doctrine or polity.


    Is this an effort to keep the African Anglicans happy so that they will not schism as they form the majority of Anglicans?

    Membership of the Anglican Communion  http://anglicanmainstream.org/usable-statistics/

    Quote
    England 44 Dioceses 26,000.000 Nominal Figure
     Nigeria: 100+ Dioceses 17,500,000
     Uganda 32 Dioceses 9,600,000 Updated from the office of the Archbishop of Uganda, July 2007
     Australia 23 Dioceses 3,998,444
     Kenya 28 Dioceses 2,500,000
     USA 111 Dioceses 2,400,000 Update 100 dioceses. 800,000 practicing Episcopalians.
     South India 21 Dioceses 2,000,000
     Southern Africa 23 Dioceses 2,000,000
     Sudan 24 Dioceses 2,000,000
     Tanzania 17 Dioceses 1,379,366
     North India 26 Dioceses 1,250,000
     England 44 Dioceses 1,200,000 Realistic figure
     Rwanda 9 Dioceses 1,000,000
     West Africa 12 Dioceses 1,000,000
     Pakistan 8 Dioceses 800,000
     West Indies 8 Dioceses 770,000
     Canada 29 Dioceses 740,262 Update 641,845 members in 2001 and 227,000 identifiable givers in 1999.
     Central Africa 12 Dioceses 600,000
     Burundi 5 Dioceses 425,000
     Ireland 12 Dioceses 410,000
     Congo 6 Dioceses 300,000
     Papua New Guinea 5 Dioceses 246,000
     Aotearoa/New Zealand
     and Polynesia 9 Dioceses 220,659
     SE Asia 4 Dioceses 168,079
     Melanesia 8 Dioceses 163,884
     Philippines 5 Dioceses 118,187
     Brazil 7 Dioceses 103,021 Total since foundation of the Province
    Brazil current 40,000 Baptised, 25,000 Confirmed, 8000 communicants, 10,000 regular members. Updated from Brazil July 2007
     Wales 6 Dioceses 93,721
     Indian Ocean 5 Dioceses 90,486
     Japan 11 Dioceses 57,273
     Scotland 7 Dioceses 53,553
     Sri Lanka 1 Dioceses 52,500
     Myanmar 6 Dioceses 49,257
     Bermuda 1 Diocese 24,800
     Hong Kong 3 Dioceses 29,000
     Mexico 5 Dioceses 25,000
     Southern Cone
     Of Latin America 7 Dioceses 22,490
     Korea 3 Dioceses 14,558
     Central American
     Region 5 dioceses 13,409
     Bangladesh 2 Dioceses 12,500
     Jerusalem and
     The Middle East 4 Dioceses 10,000
     Lusitanian Church 1 Diocese 5,000
     Spanish Reformed
     Episcopal Church 1 Diocese 5,000
     Cuba 1 Diocese 3,000
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #11 on: January 14, 2016, 09:29:24 PM »
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  • Some more news:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2016/01/anglicans-excommunicate-the-episcopalians.html

    An excerpt

    Quote
     .... Here are five reasons why this decision is important:

    1. The pressure on the Anglican Church to adhere to historic Christian teaching regarding marriage was undoubtedly led by the Africans. This means young, orthodox and majority church of the developing world has formally flexed its muscles. The Africans have stood up to the historic churches of the Northern, developed world. In global terms this is very, very important.

    Any reader of John Allen’s brilliant book The Future Church will understand that Christianity is most vibrant in the global South. The church in Africa is young, dynamic, orthodox and growing compared to the aging, liberal, declining church in Europe and North America. This success by the Africans on controlling the direction of global Anglicanism is the first real sign that power is shifting away from New York and Canterbury to Nigeria and Kenya.

    This means that the churches in the developing world have effectively established an alternative power structure that has successfully challenged the liberal, ruling establishment elite. ...


    Lord have mercy.

    Offline poche

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #12 on: January 14, 2016, 11:20:00 PM »
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  • Has the Episcopal Church in America has been excommunicated?

    Excommunicated by who? They were never Catholic in the first place.  

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #13 on: January 15, 2016, 12:03:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Has the Episcopal Church in America has been excommunicated?

    Excommunicated by who? They were never Catholic in the first place.  


    Anglican news sources are saying that the Episcopal Church in America has been excommunicated from the Anglicans.  This may be good news as the Episcopal Church is quite liberal. Apparently, this was unexpected, but it makes sense as the majority of Anglicans are in Africa.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline poche

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    Schism would not be a disaster
    « Reply #14 on: January 15, 2016, 12:35:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maria Regina
    Quote from: poche
    Has the Episcopal Church in America has been excommunicated?

    Excommunicated by who? They were never Catholic in the first place.  


    Anglican news sources are saying that the Episcopal Church in America has been excommunicated from the Anglicans.  This may be good news as the Episcopal Church is quite liberal. Apparently, this was unexpected, but it makes sense as the majority of Anglicans are in Africa.


    I didn't understand the original question. Here is more information;

    The Anglican Communion voted to censure its American branch, the Episcopal Church, during a meeting in Canterbury, England, called to reflect on the future of the communion.

    The vote Thursday (Jan. 14) to suspend the Episcopal Church from voting and decision-making for a period of three years was leaked a day ahead of a press conference that had been scheduled for Friday.

    Details of the suspension were first reported by Anglican Ink, a Connecticut-based publication that said they came from a leaked communique. The vote passed by a two-thirds margin, the publication said, and included prominent voices among African bishops who have loudly condemned the American church for its liberal stance on gαys.


    The dramatic demotion follows a string of Episcopal Church decisions stretching back to 2003, when it elected Gene Robinson, an openly gαy man, as a bishop of New Hampshire. That decision led dozens of U.S. churches to break away from the Episcopal Church and declare their allegiance to a series of rival groups, including the Anglican Church in North America.

    In July, the Episcopal Church voted to allow its clergy to perform same-sex marriages, a move not taken by the majority of churches in the Anglican Communion.

    “Given the seriousness of these matters we formally acknowledge this distance by requiring that for a period of three years The Episcopal Church no longer represent us on ecuмenical and interfaith bodies … ,” a statement issued by the Anglican Communion reads. “They will not take part in decision making on any issues pertaining to doctrine or polity.”

    “The traditional doctrine of the church in view of the teaching of Scripture, upholds marriage as between a man and a woman in faithful, lifelong union,” the statement also notes. “The majority of those gathered reaffirm this teaching.”

    The Anglican Communion consists of 44 member churches from around the world, representing about 85 million Christians.

    The Episcopal Church, the predominant church of many of the 13 original Colonies, has had a disproportionate influence on public life in the United States. The majority of U.S. presidents have been Episcopalians and its influence still far surpasses its 1.8 million U.S. members, who now find themselves without a voice in Anglican Communion decisions.

    The three-year term of the suspension is the amount of time until the next denomination-wide meeting of the Episcopal Church, when it will vote on a response, though other church groups could respond sooner.

    The suspension comes after four days of discussions among church leaders — “primates,” in church parlance — over the Episcopal Church’s position on gαy marriage in relation to the position of the broader Anglican Communion. The meetings apparently got testy; British Christian media reported that the archbishop of Uganda, among the most conservative of Anglican branches, walked out amid disagreements.

    Jeffrey Walton, the Anglican program director at the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C., said the suspension of the Episcopal Church is significant but does not, at this point, represent a schism, or irreparable rupture, within the Anglican Communion.

    “This is not kicking the Episcopal Church out of the Anglican Communion, but it is saying is that by making these decisions for the past 12 or so years the Episcopal Church has created this distance and there will be consequences to those decisions.”

    Other Anglican experts were mystified at the Anglican Communion’s statement, which consisted of eight brief points.

    “This is not how Anglicans should behave,” said Christina Rees, a member of the General Synod, the governing body of the Church of England. “It’s awful. It’s a terrible outcome to the meeting of the primates in Canterbury. What action will now be taken against all those churches in the Anglican Communion who treat gαy men and women as criminals? Will they be suspended for three years, too?”

    Jim Naughton, former canon for the Archdiocese of Washington and now a communications consultant specializing in the Episcopal Church, called the sanctions a “weird” attempt by the primates to take power away from elected bodies and claim it for themselves.

    But Naughton expects no impact in the life of the Episcopal Church.

    “We can accept these actions with grace and humility but the Episcopal Church is not going back,” Naughton said. “We can’t repent what is not sin.”

    Bishop Ian Douglas of the Episcopal Church in Connecticut wondered whether the Anglican primates wanted the Episcopal Church to repent for its position on same-sex marriage. “Or were they asking for an apology for how the (church’s governing body) went about opening all the roles and rites of the church, including marriage, to lesbian, gαy, bisɛҳuąƖ and transgender Episcopalians?”

    Kevin Eckstrom, director of communications for Washington National Cathedral, the seat of newly installed Presiding Episcopal Bishop Michael Curry, said that while this suspension will be greeted by sadness in the Episcopal Church, it has been on a parallel track with the Anglican Communion for a while.

    “It is not unlike a couple who are having marital problems and are sleeping in separate bedrooms,” he said. “Maybe now they are going to formalize the separation.”

    Curry told Episcopal News Service the sanction would be painful for many in the Episcopal Church to receive. “Many of us have committed ourselves and our church to being ‘a house of prayer for all people,’ as the Bible says, when all are truly welcome,” Curry said.

    Communion leaders also reportedly wanted to censure the Anglican Church of Canada, but because it has not yet adopted same-sex marriage rites, no action was taken.

    The Lambeth Palace press office, home of the archbishop of Canterbury, did not respond to requests for comment about the vote, which was leaked to the media.

    http://www.religionnews.com/2016/01/14/episcopal-church-suspended-anglican-communion/