Author Topic: Rules of courtship and dating  (Read 4719 times)

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Offline Zenith

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Rules of courtship and dating
« on: August 15, 2011, 01:53:50 AM »
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  • The following is a question that has puzzled me for some time now. Perhaps the answer is quite simple and its just that it isn't something that I was ever taught and I have never had to deal with it before.

    Say for example you came across the girl of your dreams and the feelings were quite mutual and you were considering proposing to her; do you first seek her father's approval before you propose or do you propose and then seek her father's approval after?

    My gut feeling is that you would seek her father's approval first though its something I'm not all that sure about.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 08:21:59 AM »
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  • My daughters' husbands spoke with me and my wife before proposing to them.  I appreciated this, but my daughters were both adults and didn't really need our permission.  Fortunately, we were delighted by both husbands.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 08:55:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Zenith
    The following is a question that has puzzled me for some time now. Perhaps the answer is quite simple and its just that it isn't something that I was ever taught and I have never had to deal with it before.

    Say for example you came across the girl of your dreams and the feelings were quite mutual and you were considering proposing to her; do you first seek her father's approval before you propose or do you propose and then seek her father's approval after?

    My gut feeling is that you would seek her father's approval first though its something I'm not all that sure about.


    It's a sign of respect to ask for approval, however, he's not your father, and as St. Thomas Aquinas says:

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    The maid is in her father's power, not as a female slave without power over her own body, but as a daughter, for the purpose of education. Hence, in so far as she is free, she can give herself into another's power without her father's consent, even as a son or daughter, since they are free, may enter religion without their parent's consent.


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    Nevertheless man is bound to obey his fellow-man in things that have to be done externally by means of the body: and yet, since by nature all men are equal, he is not bound to obey another man in matters touching the nature of the body, for instance in those relating to the support of his body or the begetting of his children. Wherefore servants are not bound to obey their masters, nor children their parents, in the question of contracting marriage or of remaining in the state of virginity or the like. But in matters concerning the disposal of actions and human affairs, a subject is bound to obey his superior within the sphere of his authority; for instance a soldier must obey his general in matters relating to war, a servant his master in matters touching the execution of the duties of his service, a son his father in matters relating to the conduct of his life and the care of the household; and so forth.


    Leo XIII states:

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    It is also a great blessing that the Church has limited, so far as is needful, the power of fathers of families, so that sons and daughters, wishing to marry, are not in any way deprived of their rightful freedom;




    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 08:57:21 AM »
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  • I think you ask the father's permission first. Although in the case Sigismund stated, if the boy and girl are adults then they don't need the father's approval.

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 10:10:56 AM »
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  • I also think its worth taking into account the culture of the family to which your potential partner belongs. As everyone's said, if she's an adult, then it's obviously not 'required', but a little respect goes a long way; even if you think they don't care as much about 'that kind of stuff' , I think it would say a lot of what kind of man you are compared with today's society of:




    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 11:40:24 AM »
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  • I agree with S2srea.

    Do you *want* your future father-in-law (who you are going to see quite often if you marry this girl, whether you like it or not) to consider you as belonging in the picture above? I certainly wouldn't.

    A father's worst assumption -- often his default assumption -- is that his daughter fell for someone like in the picture. It behooves you to shatter that false assumption in any way you can -- it's much easier that way, for all parties.

    Matthew
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    Offline Zenith

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    « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 05:51:26 PM »
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  • Thanks for the input everyone.

    I knew this thread would get your attention Tele!  :wink:

    Thanks for the quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas. Though I don't think that what he is saying is to be taken as a blanket rule that covers all circumstances.
    I think that what he is talking about would refer to the circumstances in which the father was being unreasonable and was not letting his daughter go when he has no good reason to do so.

    I personally would like to do it the old fashioned proper way as I see that it is more respectful of the family structure.

    I think it is a good thing to do when the father is reasonable. I think that reason this does not happen a lot these days is just a symptom of the break down of the family and a loss of respect.

    The picture you put up s2srea is far from me. I cannot stand that look and attitude. In a group they think they are as tuff as nails though get them on their own and they are as weak and bland as they come.

    I do plan to earn the respect of a possible future father-in-law.


    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 10:54:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Zenith
    Thanks for the input everyone.

    I knew this thread would get your attention Tele!  :wink:

    Thanks for the quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas. Though I don't think that what he is saying is to be taken as a blanket rule that covers all circumstances.
    I think that what he is talking about would refer to the circumstances in which the father was being unreasonable and was not letting his daughter go when he has no good reason to do so.

    I personally would like to do it the old fashioned proper way as I see that it is more respectful of the family structure.

    I think it is a good thing to do when the father is reasonable. I think that reason this does not happen a lot these days is just a symptom of the break down of the family and a loss of respect.

    The picture you put up s2srea is far from me. I cannot stand that look and attitude. In a group they think they are as tuff as nails though get them on their own and they are as weak and bland as they come.

    I do plan to earn the respect of a possible future father-in-law.



    I agree with you sir, I was watching Much Ado About nothing aswell as The Taming of the Shrew last month and in both instances they 'broke with her father' as it were.

    I would like to know how it is generally done in Trad circles since I am new to being in the trad circle as it were even if I held Trad beliefs for a long time before I found the chapels.

    Though I am realising that it may be different in other places then around here.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 11:53:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Zenith
    Thanks for the quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas. Though I don't think that what he is saying is to be taken as a blanket rule that covers all circumstances.


    The fundamental thing Zenith is that it is a free choice - it may be disrespectful and unwise to disregard a father's point of view on the issue, but no father should think it is his decision to make.

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 11:59:42 PM »
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  • I was studying the Baltimore Catechism #3 the other day, and found this:

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    Q. 1030. How are parents specially fitted to bring up their children in the fear and love of God?

    A. Parents are specially fitted to bring up their children in the fear and love of God:
       1. By the special grace they receive to advise and direct their children and to warn them against evil;
       2. By the experience they have acquired in passing through life from childhood to the position of parents. Children should, therefore, conscientiously seek and accept the direction of good parents.


    I know you're right Tele, it is not the choice of the father, but his counsel, according to the above statement should be sought and accepted. They, many times, have much that we can learn from. Of course, we're talking about good willed persons here, and, of course, there are many parents who may not be good willed. I just don't want the wrong impression out there.

    Offline Zenith

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    « Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 12:25:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Zenith
    Thanks for the quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas. Though I don't think that what he is saying is to be taken as a blanket rule that covers all circumstances.


    The fundamental thing Zenith is that it is a free choice - it may be disrespectful and unwise to disregard a father's point of view on the issue, but no father should think it is his decision to make.


    Yes Tele I accept that a woman has free choice. Although I would seek the father's approval out of respect, I would not necessarily be turned away if he was unreasonable and unwilling to give his approval.

    I'm just curious though if you knew a girl that you intended to marry and you got on well with the Father and he was a reasonable person, would you seek his approval before proposing?

    I know a family where the daughter wanted to marry against the father's wishes and he refused to give his approval though they are now married. From what I could see of the situation, I would say a great deal of the hassle came down to a lack of maturity in the girl and her now husband.
    Though that may also be a reflection on the way she was raised.

    I still couldn't point the finger and say any particular person was in the wrong.

    You live and learn and I plan to live in a way that as far as is possible, gives due respect to the parents.


    Offline Soldat fem de Dieu

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    « Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 05:37:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Zenith

    Say for example you came across the girl of your dreams and the feelings were quite mutual and you were considering proposing to her; do you first seek her father's approval before you propose or do you propose and then seek her father's approval after?

    My gut feeling is that you would seek her father's approval first though its something I'm not all that sure about.


    Zenith, I was moved to tears to read your inquiry.  It is so refreshing to know people actually care enough to ask that question, these days.  It is a beautiful custom and it is very "old school/old country" but in my family, it is tradition and it would be an insult, nay, heartbreak for my father, if a gentleman were not to ask his permission.  It does not matter the age of the daughter, for she will always be "Daddy's little girl" and she will always be his daughter.  That never changes with age.

    What this society neglects is respect for the parents and elders.  Men these days have the theory, "I am dating the woman, not the family", which can be furthest from the truth, when you marry, you marry the family, as well as the woman.

    My answer to you, dear one, would be, Ask her father's approval before you propose. This shows MUCH care and class.


    Offline Zenith

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    « Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 05:54:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Soldat fem de Dieu
    Quote from: Zenith

    Say for example you came across the girl of your dreams and the feelings were quite mutual and you were considering proposing to her; do you first seek her father's approval before you propose or do you propose and then seek her father's approval after?

    My gut feeling is that you would seek her father's approval first though its something I'm not all that sure about.


    Zenith, I was moved to tears to read your inquiry.  It is so refreshing to know people actually care enough to ask that question, these days.  It is a beautiful custom and it is very "old school/old country" but in my family, it is tradition and it would be an insult, nay, heartbreak for my father, if a gentleman were not to ask his permission.  It does not matter the age of the daughter, for she will always be "Daddy's little girl" and she will always be his daughter.  That never changes with age.

    What this society neglects is respect for the parents and elders.  Men these days have the theory, "I am dating the woman, not the family", which can be furthest from the truth, when you marry, you marry the family, as well as the woman.

    My answer to you, dear one, would be, Ask her father's approval before you propose. This shows MUCH care and class.



    Thank you for your answer Soldat.
    I will definitely be doing exactly that. The way I see it is, if the girl I see so much beauty in is the way she is, it is because she is a kind of reflection of the parents and the way they raised her. And so my way of thanking them is to make this mark of respect.
    I realise that you do marry the family and so I have every intention to do the right thing by them.

    Offline Soldat fem de Dieu

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    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 06:15:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Zenith
    Quote from: Soldat fem de Dieu
    Quote from: Zenith

    Say for example you came across the girl of your dreams and the feelings were quite mutual and you were considering proposing to her; do you first seek her father's approval before you propose or do you propose and then seek her father's approval after?

    My gut feeling is that you would seek her father's approval first though its something I'm not all that sure about.


    Zenith, I was moved to tears to read your inquiry.  It is so refreshing to know people actually care enough to ask that question, these days.  It is a beautiful custom and it is very "old school/old country" but in my family, it is tradition and it would be an insult, nay, heartbreak for my father, if a gentleman were not to ask his permission.  It does not matter the age of the daughter, for she will always be "Daddy's little girl" and she will always be his daughter.  That never changes with age.

    What this society neglects is respect for the parents and elders.  Men these days have the theory, "I am dating the woman, not the family", which can be furthest from the truth, when you marry, you marry the family, as well as the woman.

    My answer to you, dear one, would be, Ask her father's approval before you propose. This shows MUCH care and class.



    Thank you for your answer Soldat.
    I will definitely be doing exactly that. The way I see it is, if the girl I see so much beauty in is the way she is, it is because she is a kind of reflection of the parents and the way they raised her. And so my way of thanking them is to make this mark of respect.
    I realise that you do marry the family and so I have every intention to do the right thing by them.


    She will be a very lucky girl!  The fact that she would attract such a noble and decent man full of dignity, will really make her father proud, for her taste and attraction to a good man is a reflection of her parents (you are right)!!! Your gallant quest is admirable!  Chivalry is NOT dead :wink:

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 07:59:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Soldat fem de Dieu
    Men these days have the theory, "I am dating the woman, not the family", which can be furthest from the truth...


    This theory, for good or ill, flows from the present way of things.  Families, in general, are notably smaller and, in many cases, very spread out.  Many young people do not live anywhere near their parents, siblings, etc.   In other words, the 'theory' of which you speak, which does not affect only men, has its roots in the disorders of the modern world.  I am not saying this is a good thing, but that it is rather understandable that moderns' ideas, on this point as in so many others, are somewhat warped.
    + Vincit veritas +


     

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