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Author Topic: Rome rejects SSPX  (Read 10429 times)

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Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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Rome rejects SSPX
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2012, 11:47:28 AM »
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  • What's amazing is that in an interview in the late 90s, Bishop Fellay stated that there are four Masonic lodges operating in the Vatican (you can watch the interview on YouTube). Why, then, is he suddenly eager to "reconcile" with them?
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #46 on: March 18, 2012, 02:25:35 PM »
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  • Well, Father today at the SSPX chapel here in old Oeil-de-Cochon gave quite an introduction to his sermon.  He addressed the issues with Bishop Fellay and Rome and hinted, quite clearly, that the Rubicon has essentially been passed and that there will certainly be a schism between Rome and the SSPX (which, in my opinion, already exists since they do not in practice recognise the post-conciliar "Magisterium").  He also said that there is a clear conclusion that can be drawn from this, in his opinion, and that he will tell his opinion to any parishioner that really wants to know it and asks him.  He then clarified, apropos his unstated opinion, that he can back his opinion up with relevant docuмents and statements from the Archbishop and the history of the SSPX.  This particular declaration, by the way, came in his discourse after he made statements implying that he does not believe in the validity of the Novus Ordo in the overwhelming majority of cases, not because of canonical or rubrical technicalities but because those offering it do not believe that it is a sacrifice and therefore cannot be offering a true Mass.  He quoted Archbishop Lefebvre, saying, "Excommunication by Rome from the Conciliar Church would be welcome, because as a Catholic I never belonged and do not wish to belong to the Conciliar Church."*

    Thus, my speculation :  In conclusion, it appears that, at least amongst a certain presbyterial demographic within the SSPX, there will be an embrace of sedevacantism if there is some kind of declaration of formal schism on the part of Benedict (as Stevus speculates).  This priest, by the way, spent a long time in England and is very close to Bishop Williamson, who he regularly quotes and defends from the pulpit.  At least, if there is some reconciliation between Rome and the SSPX, a large contingent of Anglophones led by Bishop Williamson and priests formed by him will break off.  Of these, I imagine many will become sedevacantists, but we will see how many.  Perhaps, then, with more organisation and prestige lent to sedevacantism, people will begin to present the idea of a papal conclave, and we will have a Pope at last.

    * I paraphrase.


    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #47 on: March 18, 2012, 02:39:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Thus, my speculation :  In conclusion, it appears that, at least amongst a certain ####ial demographic within the SSPX, there will be an embrace of sedevacantism if there is some kind of declaration of formal schism on the part of Benedict (as Stevus speculates).


    In order to prevent scandal, I would like everybody to know that the word partially blotted out was "pres-by-ter-i-al," meaning, "of or having to do with priests and/or the pres-by-ter-ate (i.e., the Sacred Priesthood)," deriving from the Greek word "pres-by-ter-os/pres-bu-ter-os" meaning "old man," hence why the wife of a Greek priest is customarily called "pres-by-ter-a."

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #48 on: March 18, 2012, 11:24:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Perhaps, then, with more organisation and prestige lent to sedevacantism, people will begin to present the idea of a papal conclave, and we will have a Pope at last.


    My conscience compels me to make the following qualification :

    We will have a Pope at last, as stated above, assuming we do not currently have one whose identity is secret for some sufficiently grave reason.  One should not be so quick to make such an assumption; after all, who is to say that there is not a Pope in hiding, since, as many have posited, it seems that the regular jurisdiction of the Diocese of Rome must be maintained in unbroken succession ?

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #49 on: March 18, 2012, 11:27:04 PM »
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  • Here is an interesting article on the latest from the talks between the Society and Rome:

    Vatican issues ultimatum to traditionalist Catholic group


    Reuters
    Philip Pullella
    March 16, 2012
     
    (Reuters) - The Vatican on Friday told an ultra-traditionalist Roman Catholic splinter group they must accept non-negotiable doctrinal principles within a month or risk a painful break with Rome that would have "incalculable" consequences.

    The ultimatum was issued after a two-hour meeting between Swiss-born Bishop Bernard Fellay, leader of the dissident Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) and U.S. Cardinal William Levada, head of the Vatican's doctrinal department.

    Levada told Fellay the group's response after years of negotiations was still insufficient to overcome doctrinal problems at the root of the split with Rome.

    The SSPX, which rejects reforms made at the historic 1962 Second Vatican Council, defied Rome in 1988 by illegally consecrating four bishops, triggering their excommunication by the late Pope John Paul.

    In a gesture of reconciliation, Pope Benedict lifted those bans in 2009 and promoted the use of the traditional Latin Mass favored by the SSPX.

    But Benedict has refused to grant SSPX bishops the right to reject some of the Council's teachings, such as its historic reconciliation with Judaism and other faiths.

    A Vatican statement warned of a possible "Church rupture that would have painful and incalculable consequences" and demanded that the SSPX clarify its position if it wanted to rejoin the Church and heal the rift.

    Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the group had been given a month to respond.

    He indicated this was the last chance for the traditionalists to come back on board, saying the process had already been a very long one.

    "I don't know what else can be done," Lombardi said.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline AJNC

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    « Reply #50 on: March 19, 2012, 01:28:19 AM »
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  • This is an article written in 2001 by the late WJ Morgan of England, when news of the SSPX-Rome talks first broke out.

                                       Counter-Reformation Association

                                                                  NEWS AND VIEWS

                                         La Guerche, Monks Kirby, Warwickshire CV23 0QZ  

    Septuagesima Special                                                                                                      AD2001      

                                                                       Tota pulchra es, Maria,
                                                               Et macula originalis non est in te  

                                                                REAPING THE WHIRLWIND

    At Christmas, it still appeared a matter of straws in the wind. At the time, it seemed to me – mistakenly as it has now proved – not only unreasonable, but also prematurely alarmist, to draw readers’ attention to the way the wind was blowing, both in terms of direction and strength. However, by Candlemas the gale had reached London, and during the week which followed, its effects were beginning to be felt throughout the country.

      I refer, of course, to Fr Jacques Emily’s announcement that the leadership of the Fraternity of St Pius X had agreed to enter into preliminary negotiations with Conciliar Rome regarding the terms for a mutual rapprochement. The Polish Antipope wants to achieve the maximum extent of Christian unity – and that includes, from his perspective, the right-wing schismatics of the FSPX, their institutional allies, and the lay people who look to them.

      Given its “official public position” of giving token recognition to Karol Wojtyla as a valid Pope, it is inevitable that part of the Fraternity’s collective psyche should yearn for renewed official recognition and formal communion with the heretical “Holy Father”. Of course, the FSPX is a notoriously schizophrenic institution, and even abstracting from the key issue of the status of Karol Wojtyla, its right hand never quite seems to know what its left hand is doing – even when the figurative hands in question belong to the same person.

      The Abbe Paul Aulagnier’s high-profile activism makes him the natural representative of this aspect of the Fraternity’s institutional psychology. When reading the Second Assistant to the FSPX Superior General’s eloquent rhetoric – in his Saint-Jean-Eudes Bulletin, and now in his book of interviews with the Abbe Guillaume de Tanouarn, “La Tradition sans peur” – it is clear that his right hand rejects the New Mass as lacking doctrinal rectitude. However, his left hand gives the appearance of thinking that the crucial Mass issue is the right of every priest freely to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in any church.

      That being the case, providing that Cardinal Ratzinger, or any other Vatican representative, is able to concentrate on the Abbe’s left hand, there is little doubt but that Conciliar Rome will be able to offer him a package which he could hardly refuse – even though it effectively meant amputating his right hand!

      It requires very little reflection to understand what the package may contain. As Mgr Perl, of the “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, told the Ciel conference in Rome last year, the 5th May 1988 Protocol is still on offer. In his muddle of reasons for refusing to stand by the Protocol, Mgr Marcel Lefebvre’s key concern was that he should be the one to chose the bishops (in fact already chosen) to be consecrated by him on 30th June, rather than the Vatican choosing  one member only of the Fraternity for consecration on 15th August. Accordingly, part of Conciliar Rome’s new deal will obviously include a post mortem honouring of  Mgr Lefebvre’s wishes in the matter, by his choice of bishops being accepted by the Vatican. (And surely the status of Mgr Lefebvre himself, like that of the excommunicated Eastern dissidents under Paul VI, could be amicably regularised?)

      The Protocol already offers the Fraternity the autonomous status of a Society of Apostolic Life. It is taken for granted that they will continue to celebrate a form of the Tridentine Mass (as confirmed in “Ecclesia Dei Afflicta”), along with the traditional Latin sacramental rites. If the more centralising Conciliarists in the Vatican feel strong enough to face down local Episcopal opposition, it is not beyond the bounds of credibility that they will make the Latin Mass Society’s dream come true – and grant every priest, anywhere, the right to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

      Quite apart from such “perks” which might be on tacit offer from the Vatican for obliging FSPX members (like Dom Gerard’s abbatial mitre), could the Abbe Aulagnier’s left hand really resist such a settlement? Of course, his right hand wouldn’t like it, but which way would he go – left or right?

      But what, in that case, appalled readers must be asking themselves, will be the price that the Abbe Aulagnier’s left hand will have to pay for this package of goodies from Conciliar Rome? The answer is, surely, what is already part of the 5th May 1988 Protocol – no more polemics. That means no more public witnessing against the official Conciliar Reform and the New Mass. Or, in those famous words of Bishop Bernard Fellay (as reported by the Abbe Xavier Grossin) on a different matter: “Believe what you like but keep quiet.”

      Will the FSPX leadership, or alternatively some of its individual members, accept Conciliar Rome’s left-handed deal? Who can tell? Because the Fraternity is racked with incoherent thinking and practice, anything is possible. Paradoxically, the Abbe Aulagnier himself may be taken aback by the prospect he has helped to bring about. Meanwhile, FSPX members in general appear to confuse matters of doctrinal principle with pragmatic considerations. How will such a deal effect them, is more likely the question anxiously discussed, rather than what does their witness to the Catholic faith as against the Conciliar Reform require of them.

      A few robust minds must be wondering about the question of the legal ownership of FSPX property. In this country, that includes not only the churches and priories but also St Michael’s School. They may recall that the matter had to be fought out in the American civil courts, following the 1983 expulsion of the American Nine.

      Then there are the Fraternity’s important client religious communities. How, for example, could convents and convent schools survive without the material and spiritual support of the FSPX – that is, on the supposition that any of them were clear-minded enough to recognise that their defining anti-Conciliarist witness had been betrayed?

      Many lay people, understandably, must now be anxiously considering the implications of a Rome-Econe deal for their own assistance at Mass and reception of the sacraments. Will they, in conscience, be able to go on assisting at Masses in Fraternity churches? Or will they be forced to stay at home, or – all over again – establish Mass centres, to be served by those recalcitrant priests who will have rejected the deal, and been peremptorily expelled from the FSPX and rendered destitute? Will some of the Londoners, for instance, stage a Saint-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet style occupation of St Joseph’s Church, to prevent it from becoming formally part of the Conciliar Church? It may seem unlikely, but who knows what lay people may be driven to do if faced with another clerical betrayal?

      All these unanswered questions indicate how dangerous the course is to which the FSPX leadership has committed itself. It is not sedevacantists only who will refuse any accommodation with Conciliar Rome. The Abbe Aulagnier and his associates have proverbially sown the wind, and –whatever the precise outcome – are in danger of reaping a whirlwind.

    5-II-2001                                                                                           William Morgan

    Offline Maizar

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    « Reply #51 on: March 19, 2012, 06:50:57 AM »
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    Indeed. The SSPX have excellent priests and are safe regarding the sacraments. Whilst another layman who attends the SSPX recommended I attend the Institute Christ the King when unable to attend Society Mass chapels, I disagree with him. I wouldn't encourage attending Mass organised by the FSSP or Institute Christ the King.

    We don't have the CMRI in Ireland though there is small sede and independent apostolates here and there. Ireland has been a country that has suited both the Indult and SSPX. An independent apostolate sede or non sede has never really flourished.

    I'm often invited to 'approved' Traditional Masses but always decline.I will stay with the SSPX but if they 'sell out' they are destroyed. A tragic day for Tradition.

    ... etc


    A left-of-field thought:

    The Eastern Orthodox churches have been recognized as providing valid sacraments for many centuries, although they are in formal schism. Are the doctrinal differences with some of those Churches greater than with the Vatican? I would rather think they are smaller now, after all, they still mostly have valid orders! I have attended weddings and funerals in Melkite and traditional Greek Orthodox churches in the past. Not sure if I am able to learn Aramaic at this late stage! I wonder whether we are witnessing the almost incredible end of Roman Catholicism as being a major Christian religion.

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #52 on: March 19, 2012, 09:32:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar

    A left-of-field thought:

    The Eastern Orthodox churches have been recognized as providing valid sacraments for many centuries, although they are in formal schism. Are the doctrinal differences with some of those Churches greater than with the Vatican? I would rather think they are smaller now, after all, they still mostly have valid orders! I have attended weddings and funerals in Melkite and traditional Greek Orthodox churches in the past. Not sure if I am able to learn Aramaic at this late stage! I wonder whether we are witnessing the almost incredible end of Roman Catholicism as being a major Christian religion.


    I can see how you would come to this conclusion. But one not leave Catholicism to  find valid, and traditional Rites. Don't forget, the Byzantine Rite has been left mostly untouched. At least, this is my understanding. And while there are many priests and Bishops within the Byzantine Church who are liberals, I believe there are also many within it who are committed to keeping the faith.

    As far as the 'end of Roman Catholicism'. I know you don't mean it, but this would mean that Christ is a liar, and the gates of hell have prevailed. Again, I know this isn't what you mean. However, its not too hard to start going in that direction with one's thoughts, especially when they look around at the Church today. It can be discouraging, and I've been there, trust me. But we need to keep strong! God has deemed that we be put through these trials, and be the ones who keep His Church alive. I think we need to just be patient and wait. Save your soul, help save those of your family, and wait for God to tell us what's next.


    Offline bernadette

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    « Reply #53 on: March 19, 2012, 10:10:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: AJNC

                                     


      A few robust minds must be wondering about the question of the legal ownership of FSPX property. In this country, that includes not only the churches and priories but also St Michael’s School. They may recall that the matter had to be fought out in the American civil courts, following the 1983 expulsion of the American Nine.

     
    5-II-2001                                                                                           William Morgan



    Behind the scenes maneuvering of assets and property by the SSPX hierarchy seemed to leak out about the time of the Krah-gate affair.  I've often thought that the SSPX have had the legal issues all tied up by the help of this lawyer, so there can be no repeat of the legal battle which occurred in American after the nine left. They certainly squelched the explosive Krah affair in a hurry...and they never gave an explanation of any kind to their laity.
    My opinion, of course.

    Offline Emerentiana

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    « Reply #54 on: March 19, 2012, 11:18:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: bernadette
    Quote from: AJNC

                                     


      A few robust minds must be wondering about the question of the legal ownership of FSPX property. In this country, that includes not only the churches and priories but also St Michael’s School. They may recall that the matter had to be fought out in the American civil courts, following the 1983 expulsion of the American Nine.

     
    5-II-2001                                                                                           William Morgan



    Behind the scenes maneuvering of assets and property by the SSPX hierarchy seemed to leak out about the time of the Krah-gate affair.  I've often thought that the SSPX have had the legal issues all tied up by the help of this lawyer, so there can be no repeat of the legal battle which occurred in American after the nine left. They certainly squelched the explosive Krah affair in a hurry...and they never gave an explanation of any kind to their laity.
    My opinion, of course.


    I have no doubt that if there is a split in the SSPX, the faction that goes with Rome will retain all the properties, and the group that breaks from them will have no assets.  Thats what happened at the time of Vatican 11.  the modern church that stayed with Rome kept almost everything.  Perhaps, if a whole group in a specific Pius X chapel  has a strong lay group, they may be able to hold on to the real estate.  That would be rare.

    Offline Wessex

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    « Reply #55 on: March 19, 2012, 02:28:46 PM »
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  • Yes, back to being impoverished again unless there is a merchant banker or two seeking redemption through his millions/billions! But, in a way, ridding ourself of money-obsession is the way to go .... and priests should only need their expenses.


    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #56 on: March 20, 2012, 01:18:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Well, Father today at the SSPX chapel here in old Oeil-de-Cochon gave quite an introduction to his sermon.  He addressed the issues with Bishop Fellay and Rome and hinted, quite clearly, that the Rubicon has essentially been passed and that there will certainly be a schism between Rome and the SSPX (which, in my opinion, already exists since they do not in practice recognise the post-conciliar "Magisterium").  He also said that there is a clear conclusion that can be drawn from this, in his opinion, and that he will tell his opinion to any parishioner that really wants to know it and asks him.  He then clarified, apropos his unstated opinion, that he can back his opinion up with relevant docuмents and statements from the Archbishop and the history of the SSPX.  This particular declaration, by the way, came in his discourse after he made statements implying that he does not believe in the validity of the Novus Ordo in the overwhelming majority of cases, not because of canonical or rubrical technicalities but because those offering it do not believe that it is a sacrifice and therefore cannot be offering a true Mass.  He quoted Archbishop Lefebvre, saying, "Excommunication by Rome from the Conciliar Church would be welcome, because as a Catholic I never belonged and do not wish to belong to the Conciliar Church."*

    Thus, my speculation :  In conclusion, it appears that, at least amongst a certain [sacerdotal] demographic within the SSPX, there will be an embrace of sedevacantism if there is some kind of declaration of formal schism on the part of Benedict (as Stevus speculates).  This priest, by the way, spent a long time in England and is very close to Bishop Williamson, who he regularly quotes and defends from the pulpit.  At least, if there is some reconciliation between Rome and the SSPX, a large contingent of Anglophones led by Bishop Williamson and priests formed by him will break off.  Of these, I imagine many will become sedevacantists, but we will see how many.  Perhaps, then, with more organisation and prestige lent to sedevacantism, people will begin to present the idea of a papal conclave, and we will have a Pope at last.

    * I paraphrase.


    Nothing ?  It seems that a new phase in the Crisis is about to begin.  Nobody has any speculation to add regarding the probability of a declaration of formal schism (or a "schismatic act/mentality") and/or automatic excommunication ?  What about the prospect of many SSPX priests becoming sedevacantists ?  Matthew, what would you do ?

    As for the priests who don't go along with some reconciliation being impoverished, truly then the wheat will be separated from the chaff.  And one wouldn't even need to be very high quality wheat to not compromise one's faith for money.

    I am interested in what others have to say.  What all seems likely to others ?

    Offline Maizar

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    « Reply #57 on: March 20, 2012, 02:45:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea

    I can see how you would come to this conclusion. But one not leave Catholicism to  find valid, and traditional Rites. Don't forget, the Byzantine Rite has been left mostly untouched. At least, this is my understanding. And while there are many priests and Bishops within the Byzantine Church who are liberals, I believe there are also many within it who are committed to keeping the faith.

    As far as the 'end of Roman Catholicism'. I know you don't mean it, but this would mean that Christ is a liar, and the gates of hell have prevailed. Again, I know this isn't what you mean. However, its not too hard to start going in that direction with one's thoughts, especially when they look around at the Church today. It can be discouraging, and I've been there, trust me. But we need to keep strong! God has deemed that we be put through these trials, and be the ones who keep His Church alive. I think we need to just be patient and wait. Save your soul, help save those of your family, and wait for God to tell us what's next.


    Thanks s2srea for the response. Yes, my comment was really just for discussion's sake.

    Well, the sedevacante view, as far as it is not heretical as a concept, means that the Catholic Church can continue to exist despite having a broken political structure (eg: a desanctified Basilica in Rome with an invalid or otherwise absent Pope). This does not need to mean that Christ has abandoned his Church, so long as we still have some bishops and priests.

    But yes, to suggest that in the entire world there could be a situation where there is not one living validly ordained bishop left who is not an heretic is an impossibility.

    Offline Wessex

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    « Reply #58 on: March 20, 2012, 03:10:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Quote from: PereJoseph
    Well, Father today at the SSPX chapel here in old Oeil-de-Cochon gave quite an introduction to his sermon.  He addressed the issues with Bishop Fellay and Rome and hinted, quite clearly, that the Rubicon has essentially been passed and that there will certainly be a schism between Rome and the SSPX (which, in my opinion, already exists since they do not in practice recognise the post-conciliar "Magisterium").  He also said that there is a clear conclusion that can be drawn from this, in his opinion, and that he will tell his opinion to any parishioner that really wants to know it and asks him.  He then clarified, apropos his unstated opinion, that he can back his opinion up with relevant docuмents and statements from the Archbishop and the history of the SSPX.  This particular declaration, by the way, came in his discourse after he made statements implying that he does not believe in the validity of the Novus Ordo in the overwhelming majority of cases, not because of canonical or rubrical technicalities but because those offering it do not believe that it is a sacrifice and therefore cannot be offering a true Mass.  He quoted Archbishop Lefebvre, saying, "Excommunication by Rome from the Conciliar Church would be welcome, because as a Catholic I never belonged and do not wish to belong to the Conciliar Church."*

    Thus, my speculation :  In conclusion, it appears that, at least amongst a certain [sacerdotal] demographic within the SSPX, there will be an embrace of sedevacantism if there is some kind of declaration of formal schism on the part of Benedict (as Stevus speculates).  This priest, by the way, spent a long time in England and is very close to Bishop Williamson, who he regularly quotes and defends from the pulpit.  At least, if there is some reconciliation between Rome and the SSPX, a large contingent of Anglophones led by Bishop Williamson and priests formed by him will break off.  Of these, I imagine many will become sedevacantists, but we will see how many.  Perhaps, then, with more organisation and prestige lent to sedevacantism, people will begin to present the idea of a papal conclave, and we will have a Pope at last.

    * I paraphrase.


    Nothing ?  It seems that a new phase in the Crisis is about to begin.  Nobody has any speculation to add regarding the probability of a declaration of formal schism (or a "schismatic act/mentality") and/or automatic excommunication ?  What about the prospect of many SSPX priests becoming sedevacantists ?  Matthew, what would you do ?

    As for the priests who don't go along with some reconciliation being impoverished, truly then the wheat will be separated from the chaff.  And one wouldn't even need to be very high quality wheat to not compromise one's faith for money.

    I am interested in what others have to say.  What all seems likely to others ?




    Will something as dramatic as that happen? Or will it be another case of 'kicking the can further down the road' as in the financial world? Does the impasse become a more convenient solution in itself as the parties (Rome and Menzingen) enter another face-saving stage? Unless there is general discontent among Society members, the partial-communion strategy of the Society could run for more decades. Meanwhile the laity drift hither and thither thankful for small mercies.

    We also have to consider whether there is an appetite for more independent action among a new generation of traditionalists. The old guard that personally have experience of the Church in former times are dying out and some have mellowed. And those not sitting on the fence are already alligned to apostalates of their choosing. The big question mark is the reaction of a younger generation
    and how far they have adopted a liberal approach in their lives that would favour engaging with the mainstream church instead of confronting her.

    Offline Maizar

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    Rome rejects SSPX
    « Reply #59 on: March 20, 2012, 04:46:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: Wessex

    Will something as dramatic as that happen? Or will it be another case of 'kicking the can further down the road' as in the financial world? Does the impasse become a more convenient solution in itself as the parties (Rome and Menzingen) enter another face-saving stage? Unless there is general discontent among Society members, the partial-communion strategy of the Society could run for more decades. Meanwhile the laity drift hither and thither thankful for small mercies.

    We also have to consider whether there is an appetite for more independent action among a new generation of traditionalists. The old guard that personally have experience of the Church in former times are dying out and some have mellowed. And those not sitting on the fence are already alligned to apostalates of their choosing. The big question mark is the reaction of a younger generation
    and how far they have adopted a liberal approach in their lives that would favour engaging with the mainstream church instead of confronting her.


    Partial communion as it currently stands favors the SSPX most. if the SSPX needed the permission of a local NO bishop to set up a parish, it would cease to grow.

    The Traditional Catholic movement has oft times been accused of being "stuck in the 1950's" and so on. However the youth in the movement has its feet well and truly in the present and there is an ever growing and widespread awareness of world politics and an appropriate and accurate interpretation thereof. I know that in the past amongst Catholics there were pockets of people who were well informed about world affairs, including those in the Vatican, but they were the minority. Today this knowledge is common, and this gives the SSPX laity power, the SSPX heirarchy accountability, and the NO heretics much to fear.

    The other thing is that truly Catholic families are yielding good fruit - sizable families and improved affluence, generation after generation, due to sensible saving and investing habits, and living the Christian life. Traditional Catholicism is a formula for success. This is why the Church had come as far as it has.

    I also think that moral leadership from the likes of Bishop Williamson who, in his humility, points out some of the most pertinent truths of our day, is not lost on the youth.