Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory  (Read 1387 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 800 Cruiser

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Reputation: +53/-7
  • Gender: Male
Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
« on: October 02, 2018, 05:04:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I am reading something posted via link to another topic of mine, helping to explain mortal vs venial sin. Under venial sin is a question that suggests my desire to fully pay for my sins and not attempt to shorten my purgatory is a venial sin. Huh??
    That seems at odds with my attitude of personal accountability: I committed the crime so I must do the time. 
    Am I missing something here?
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #1 on: October 02, 2018, 05:53:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 02, 2018, 05:04:15 PM
    I am reading something posted via link to another topic of mine, helping to explain mortal vs venial sin. Under venial sin is a question that suggests my desire to fully pay for my sins and not attempt to shorten my purgatory is a venial sin. Huh??
    That seems at odds with my attitude of personal accountability: I committed the crime so I must do the time.
    Am I missing something here?
    We do not fully pay for our sins.  None of us is capable of doing that.  The only one capable of that is Jesus Christ.  All of us deserve to burn eternally in hell and would be certain to do so if not for the grace of God.

    As well as our eternal punishment, which Our Lord received in our place, there is temporal punishment.  We can receive temporal punishment in this world or in Purgatory.  It is better to receive it in this world but, if we can't, God allows us to receive it in Purgatory.  Refusing to shorten time in Purgatory is, in effect, the same as trying to avoid sufferings in this world and putting off temporal punishment to the next.  

    Acts of self-discipline and mortification are actions we can take now to deal with the temporal consequences of our sins.  By doing this now, it is no longer necessary to do as much in Purgatory.  It is not avoiding punishment or getting away with something.
    Logged

    Offline 800 Cruiser

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 133
    • Reputation: +53/-7
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #2 on: October 02, 2018, 06:37:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • My apology. I misspoke. I did not mean that I pay fully for my sins, rather that I pay in full my temporal punishment. Of course I would rather not experience purgatory, however I do not feel right that someone else help to pay my temporal punishment. Ironically, I do not have any issue with helping to pay anyone else’s temporal punishment. 
    This is one of those things that I am finding it exceedingly difficult to articulate properly. 
    I do not believe or think that I am coming from a place of pride or vanity as has been suggested in my real life, but I grant that is quite possible, facing reality head on. 
    If I am made to see that I am wrong on this, I fully intend to amend my way of thinking—I do not desire to be in error. 

    I just believe that since I am the one that sinned, and our Lord has paid in blood to accept the sin itself, I should be held fully accountable for my temporal penance. 
    Please ladies and gentlemen, help me to explore this and if I am wrong point it out to me how and why. 
    Logged

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11666
    • Reputation: +6994/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #3 on: October 02, 2018, 07:14:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 02, 2018, 06:37:59 PM
    My apology. I misspoke. I did not mean that I pay fully for my sins, rather that I pay in full my temporal punishment. Of course I would rather not experience purgatory, however I do not feel right that someone else help to pay my temporal punishment. Ironically, I do not have any issue with helping to pay anyone else’s temporal punishment.
    This is one of those things that I am finding it exceedingly difficult to articulate properly.
    .
    We are touching here, I think, on the Communion of Saints. We are all one body. Just as one part will compensate for the other if the latter is diseased so it is with the Church.
    .
    Truly Holy people are rare and many of us "mean well" but fall often. The prayers and sacrifices of saints has been the means of getting souls into Heaven earlier than they were destined to do. They desire that so many more souls should be in God's presence praising Him forever.
    .
    Also, remember that, while on earth, we can do much for ourselves and others to get us into Heaven, or avoid Hell, but once in Purgatory there is nothing we can do to help ourselves.
    .
    So be sure to pray for the Church Suffering while we are part of the Church Militant.
    I hope that helps.
    Logged
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline 800 Cruiser

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 133
    • Reputation: +53/-7
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #4 on: October 02, 2018, 07:51:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Thanks Nadir. That was a good way to put it to me. It helps me see a different way (change of perspective). 
    I love, and at the same time am overwhelmed by, how answers to my questions lead to new questions in unexpected directions. 

    E.g.: church Militant, suffering and triumphant. Had no idea about this. New directions to move in and explore. 
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #5 on: October 02, 2018, 08:15:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 02, 2018, 06:37:59 PM
    I just believe that since I am the one that sinned, and our Lord has paid in blood to accept the sin itself, I should be held fully accountable for my temporal penance.
    Please ladies and gentlemen, help me to explore this and if I am wrong point it out to me how and why.
    As I understand it, one avoids Purgatory by doing the temporal penance  before death. I am not sure why this would make you think that you are not held fully accountable for your temporal penance. Perhaps you could give a link or an exact quote.

    Here is a (pre Vatican II) booklet by Fr. Paul O'Sullivan on avoiding Purgatory.  Perhaps it will help to answer your question: 

    http://online.anyflip.com/scnz/atqc/mobile/index.html#p=1
    Logged

    Offline 800 Cruiser

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 133
    • Reputation: +53/-7
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #6 on: October 02, 2018, 08:58:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Perhaps I misunderstand purgatory, and temporal as they relate to each other. 
    Logged

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11666
    • Reputation: +6994/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 09:54:58 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 02, 2018, 07:51:36 PM
    Thanks Nadir. That was a good way to put it to me. It helps me see a different way (change of perspective).
    I love, and at the same time am overwhelmed by, how answers to my questions lead to new questions in unexpected directions.

    E.g.: church Militant, suffering and triumphant. Had no idea about this. New directions to move in and explore.
    Happy to help. We are all in the same boat. The learning just goes on...and on....and on.... and on.
    Logged
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #8 on: October 03, 2018, 05:06:55 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 02, 2018, 06:37:59 PM
    I just believe that since I am the one that sinned, and our Lord has paid in blood to accept the sin itself, I should be held fully accountable for my temporal penance.
    Please ladies and gentlemen, help me to explore this and if I am wrong point it out to me how and why.
    Purgatory is, as you know, a place of temporary punishment through which nearly all souls who die in the state of sanctifying grace must pass before entering heaven due to the vestiges of sin we have on our souls which we committed during our lives. Purgatory cleanses us of the vestiges or remnants of sin that our penances on earth were unable to cleanse.

    Seems like you are confusing words here. "Temporal penance" is simply, "penance", which is something that we do here on earth because we cannot do it after death. Fasting is an example of a "temporal penance", although Catholics do not use that term, we simply say "penance." Fasting is a penance we perform here on earth for a few reasons, one of which is to help shorten our time, and/or the time of other souls in purgatory.

    Here is a nice little pamphlet that will help, Read me or Rue it. It is simply written and short, always a good combination. :)


    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #9 on: October 03, 2018, 09:45:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 03, 2018, 05:06:55 AM
    Here is a nice little pamphlet that will help, Read me or Rue it. It is simply written and short, always a good combination. :)
    Thanks for your explanation and the link. This is by the same author as the pamphlet that I linked to, Fr. O'Sullivan.  This one is a good general explanation of Purgatory.  The one I gave earlier in the thread was specifically on avoiding Purgatory.  It talks about how to avoid sin in the first place and, when one does sin, to do penance.  I found both helpful and I hope they clear up the subject for 800 Cruiser.  I wish that I had been given information like this when I was a new Catholic, but this is not the sort of thing that people talk about much in the Novus Ordo.

    I have been enjoying these threads that 800 Cruiser has been starting.  It's a great way to review to truths of the Faith.  His posts have reminded me of when I was new to traditional Catholicism and trad forums.  You may remember what I was like then, Stubborn.  I wish that I had had the humility to ask questions like 800 Cruiser does, instead of thinking that I knew it all and arguing with everyone.  
    Logged

    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #10 on: October 03, 2018, 03:03:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • We should all pray daily that, God Willing, purgatory be our destination. 

    What are the options?  I think it's likely that very few souls will see the Beatific Vision immediately because of man's fallen nature and the traps of this world that are disguised as good things.  Then, if not straight to Heaven, if we go to Purgatory we are guaranteed to see the Beatific Vision. 

    :pray: ----> Pray daily.
    Logged

    Offline 800 Cruiser

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 133
    • Reputation: +53/-7
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #11 on: October 03, 2018, 04:15:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • That booklet makes me think I should pray only for those souls in purgatory, yet I feel that I should keep my prayer intentions varied for the time being as I am still in my infancy in the faith. There is more that I do not know that I do not know, than that which I know to look for and learn (hope that makes sense). 
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #12 on: October 03, 2018, 11:14:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Capt McQuigg on October 03, 2018, 03:03:20 PM
    We should all pray daily that, God Willing, purgatory be our destination.

    What are the options?  I think it's likely that very few souls will see the Beatific Vision immediately because of man's fallen nature and the traps of this world that are disguised as good things.  Then, if not straight to Heaven, if we go to Purgatory we are guaranteed to see the Beatific Vision.

    :pray: ----> Pray daily.
    I pray daily that Heaven be my destination. That way if I don't quite make it hopefully my time in Purgatory will be a short one. It was pointed out to me many years ago that if I try for Purgatory and I don't quite make it then I am in real trouble.  
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #13 on: October 03, 2018, 11:15:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 800 Cruiser on October 03, 2018, 04:15:28 PM
    That booklet makes me think I should pray only for those souls in purgatory, yet I feel that I should keep my prayer intentions varied for the time being as I am still in my infancy in the faith. There is more that I do not know that I do not know, than that which I know to look for and learn (hope that makes sense).
    Pray as you feel the Holy Spirit guides you.
    Logged

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reluctant to shorten my purgatory
    « Reply #14 on: October 04, 2018, 06:21:04 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Jaynek on October 03, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
    Thanks for your explanation and the link. This is by the same author as the pamphlet that I linked to, Fr. O'Sullivan.  This one is a good general explanation of Purgatory.  The one I gave earlier in the thread was specifically on avoiding Purgatory.  It talks about how to avoid sin in the first place and, when one does sin, to do penance.  I found both helpful and I hope they clear up the subject for 800 Cruiser.  I wish that I had been given information like this when I was a new Catholic, but this is not the sort of thing that people talk about much in the Novus Ordo.

    I have been enjoying these threads that 800 Cruiser has been starting.  It's a great way to review to truths of the Faith.  His posts have reminded me of when I was new to traditional Catholicism and trad forums.  You may remember what I was like then, Stubborn.  I wish that I had had the humility to ask questions like 800 Cruiser does, instead of thinking that I knew it all and arguing with everyone.  
    Yes, as children, we read and were read many books by Fr. O'Sullivan - he has a ton of excellent little books, I think most are for children, which are often just what new converts to the faith need. And yes, I too enjoy these threads from 800 Cruiser, I have always liked trying to discuss fundamental truths of our faith in the simplest terms possible, heck, doing so helps my faith. 

    And yes, I remember those days, but you've done well in that department since those days - Deo Gratias!

    All the religious education in the world means nothing, if we do not know our faith, and if we know our faith, all the religious education in the world has it's place, yet comparatively still means very little - and whatever knowledge is attained can be a very dangerous thing - without the faith. Without faith, it is impossible to avoid purgatory because it is impossible to love God, yet the greater our faith, the more, as if in tandem, our love of God grows. The more our love of God grows, the more we strive to please and be with Him, hopefully the less we sin and the better our chances are to shorten our time in purgatory.







    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
    Pages: [1] 2
    « previous next »