Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Release from excommunication after death?  (Read 1237 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline forlorn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Reputation: +964/-1098
  • Gender: Male
Release from excommunication after death?
« on: July 21, 2019, 07:58:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So as I understand it, if you die under a valid excommunication, you're damned. But in the case of Henry IV, of the Holy Roman Empire, he was released from his excommunication after his death and his body was moved to consecrated ground. How does the release of an excommunication after death work? Was he automatically damned or not?


    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #1 on: July 21, 2019, 09:12:25 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't know the details of Henry IV, so I can't speak to why he was moved to consecrated ground.  But excommunication doesn't necessarily entail automatic damnation.  It severs a man from membership in the Church (in its most severe forms at least, although not all excommunications entail loss of membership-- a toleratus is deprived of the right to sacraments but remains a member), but just as a catechumen may be saved via perfect charity despite lacking membership, so too might an excommunicate-- either owing to his excommunication being unjust in the first place (e.g. Joan of Arc) or him making a perfect act of contrition yet dying before being able to be received back into Church membership-- avail unto salvation.  This is described with various expressions by theologians, although member in voto seems to be the preferred expression given its use by the Holy Office and its promotion as a term by Mgr. Fenton.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #2 on: July 21, 2019, 09:38:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't know the details of Henry IV, so I can't speak to why he was moved to consecrated ground.  But excommunication doesn't necessarily entail automatic damnation.  It severs a man from membership in the Church (in its most severe forms at least, although not all excommunications entail loss of membership-- a toleratus is deprived of the right to sacraments but remains a member), but just as a catechumen may be saved via perfect charity despite lacking membership, so too might an excommunicate-- either owing to his excommunication being unjust in the first place (e.g. Joan of Arc) or him making a perfect act of contrition yet dying before being able to be received back into Church membership-- avail unto salvation.  This is described with various expressions by theologians, although member in voto seems to be the preferred expression given its use by the Holy Office and its promotion as a term by Mgr. Fenton.
    I see, thank for your answer. As with everything in the Church, nothing is quite so simple as it seems. There's always deeper nuances to every issue. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #3 on: July 21, 2019, 09:39:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interestingly, Dante (who was a theologian whose theology was eclipsed by his singular poetry) placed ALL the excommunicates in purgatory.

    For him, all the excommunicates were -so far as the excommunication only is concerned- saved.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #4 on: July 21, 2019, 09:43:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sentence of an ecclesiatical tribunal is not infallible. Such sentences (including excommunication and declaration of ipso facto excommunication) may be misjudgments.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #5 on: July 21, 2019, 10:13:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sentence of an ecclesiatical tribunal is not infallible. Such sentences (including excommunication and declaration of ipso facto excommunication) may be misjudgments.
    .
    Yes, this is a good point too.  The Church is not infallible in meting out penalties to individuals, as such actions lack the universal sort of scope upon which infallibility hinges.  The same goes for other legal proceedings which do not concern the universal Church, like declarations of marriage validity or invalidity.
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 10:16:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I see, thank for your answer. As with everything in the Church, nothing is quite so simple as it seems. There's always deeper nuances to every issue.
    .
    Well, being excommunicated is still a bad thing, and while not entailing an ipso facto damnation, it places one at-- shall we say, a significant disadvantage.  When a person is excommunicated they are deprived of the usual means of grace.  That is not a state anyone would wish to persist in, and it is a state which, short of either a reconciliation of some great and extraordinary grace from God, will invariably lead to damnation.  The exact details are more nuanced, yes, but the basic "take away" with regard to the significance and effect of excommunication is not all that nuanced. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 10:28:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I see, thank for your answer. As with everything in the Church, nothing is quite so simple as it seems. There's always deeper nuances to every issue. 

    thanks*


    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 10:31:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interestingly, Dante (who was a theologian whose theology was eclipsed by his singular poetry) placed ALL the excommunicates in purgatory.

    For him, all the excommunicates were -so far as the excommunication only is concerned- saved.
    Huh, I never knew. I always assumed excommunication placed you out of the Church entirely, in a way that EENS would damn you. I guess you learn something new every day. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #9 on: July 21, 2019, 02:00:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interesting info.  I’ve always heard that the purpose of excommunications and other penalties was to wake up the person so that they would repent. The Church uses such measures to “knock some sense” into the person so that they’d see their errors.  The salvation of souls is the ultimate goal.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #10 on: July 21, 2019, 02:11:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Huh, I never knew. I always assumed excommunication placed you out of the Church entirely, in a way that EENS would damn you. I guess you learn something new every day.

    Well, not sure how Dante's position holds up in light of Mystici Corporis Christii of Pius XII (which said excommunication severs one from the Church).

    Either there is a way to reconcile the two, or, what was once a permissible opinion in Dante's time is no longer permissible by 1943.

    As an aside, on this point, back in my indult days, Msgr. Schmitz (ICK) told me that although excommunicates are spoken of as being completely outside the Church by theologians, it is not actually true, in virtue of their baptism (i.e., It is baptism which makes one a member, and since baptism cannot be effaced, a separation cannot be complete).  That sounds a lot like Dominus Iesus, Lumen Gentium, and the new ecclesiology to me.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #11 on: July 21, 2019, 02:26:38 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Well, not sure how Dante's position holds up in light of Mystici Corporis Christii of Pius XII (which said excommunication severs one from the Church).

    Either there is a way to reconcile the two, or, what was once a permissible opinion in Dante's time is no longer permissible by 1943.

    As an aside, on this point, back in my indult days, Msgr. Schmitz (ICK) told me that although excommunicates are spoken of as being completely outside the Church by theologians, it is not actually true, in virtue of their baptism (i.e., It is baptism which makes one a member, and since baptism cannot be effaced, a separation cannot be complete).  That sounds a lot like Dominus Iesus, Lumen Gentium, and the new ecclesiology to me.
    .
    Pope Pius taught excommunication severs one from external membership.  But MCC also acknowledges the possibility of another type of union, later in the docuмent.  I would take this to be membership in voto, given later developments; membership in voto is how we would describe the saved catechumen, and I think this applies to the excommunicant who is in the state of grace (Bellarmine argues exactly that, if I recall correctly, though with different terminology).  Someone who enjoys a special and real internal union with Christ and the Church owing to their having been justified by grace and the requisite supernatural virtues, but who nevertheless does not enjoy the bond of external union.
    .
    Dante was described by Benedict XV as a student of St. Thomas's and he described Dante's work as thoroughly informed by Catholic principles and teaching.  Benedict's encyclical on Dante was pre-MCC, true, but if there was any serious error in Dante's work (i.e., an actual contradiction with Catholic ecclesiology or soteriology) I doubt an encyclical would be able to praise him the way that Pope Benedict's did.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #12 on: July 21, 2019, 02:32:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Pope Pius taught excommunication severs one from external membership.  But MCC also acknowledges the possibility of another type of union, later in the docuмent.  I would take this to be membership in voto, given later developments; membership in voto is how we would describe the saved catechumen, and I think this applies to the excommunicant who is in the state of grace (Bellarmine argues exactly that, if I recall correctly, though with different terminology).  Someone who enjoys a special and real internal union with Christ and the Church owing to their having been justified by grace and the requisite supernatural virtues, but who nevertheless does not enjoy the bond of external union.
    .
    Dante was described by Benedict XV as a student of St. Thomas's and he described Dante's work as thoroughly informed by Catholic principles and teaching.  Benedict's encyclical on Dante was pre-MCC, true, but if there was any serious error in Dante's work (i.e., an actual contradiction with Catholic ecclesiology or soteriology) I doubt an encyclical would be able to praise him the way that Pope Benedict's did.
    Excellent points, Mith!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41902
    • Reputation: +23943/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #13 on: July 21, 2019, 03:24:46 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, the notion of invisible membership is alien to Catholic theology.

    What's at play here is the Church's judgment in the external forum regarding loss of membership.  Barring some solemn pronouncement, an ordinary excommunication simply means that the Church judges, in the external forum, that the person has lost membership in the Church and will treat him as a non-member.  It's possible that the Church's judgment was wrong ... such as in the case of an unjust excommunication (+Lefebvre come to mind?).  Was +Lefebvre severed of actual membership in the Church in any way whatsoever?  No.  Otherwise, if +Lefebvre had actually been severed of visible membership, +Lefebvre would have been committing grave sin by continuing to receive the Sacraments ... no different than if a catechumen were to receive Communion because he was morally certain of the invisible in voto membership.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41902
    • Reputation: +23943/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Release from excommunication after death?
    « Reply #14 on: July 21, 2019, 03:26:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church is not infallible in meting out penalties to individuals, as such actions lack the universal sort of scope upon which infallibility hinges.  The same goes for other legal proceedings which do not concern the universal Church, like declarations of marriage validity or invalidity.

    THIS^^^ is what applies here.