Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: relatives  (Read 4793 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline crossbro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1434
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
relatives
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2014, 11:53:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: crossbro


    What is the issue about cremation ?- Spreading the ashes ?

    From my experience cremation is chosen mainly because it costs less than a regular burial.

    From the Code of Canon Law;

    1176 §3. The Church earnestly recommends that the pious custom of burying the bodies of the deceased be observed; nevertheless, the Church does not prohibit cremation unless it was chosen for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine.



    I have more experience then you do, spreading ashes is prohibited. In the case of cremation ashes must be interred. It is not cheap to inter ashes in a Catholic cemetery either- 3000-5000 dollars.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    relatives
    « Reply #16 on: June 02, 2014, 12:26:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Jєωs were always the ones who were pro-cremation. They scoff at the Last Judgement by spreading their ashes.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Tiffany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3112
    • Reputation: +1639/-32
    • Gender: Female
    relatives
    « Reply #17 on: June 02, 2014, 02:18:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think it's only allowed in cases where the dead cannot be buried like in some circuмstances of war or a pandemic.

    Offline Tiffany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3112
    • Reputation: +1639/-32
    • Gender: Female
    relatives
    « Reply #18 on: June 02, 2014, 02:20:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: gooch
    This is a recap of how my evening went with relatives I rarely see, it was a 50th anniversary

    uncle 1: I had to tell him his idea of cremation for when he passes away is a no no, he responded tht all the paperwork was done already

    cousin's wife doesn't believe the bible, outspoken, doesn't believe a God would judge anyone on the basis of what religion they were brought up in..my mother who is novus order  catholic agreeing with her...my idea that God will judge us in he after life is apparently extremist

    cousins giving condolences to my wife in the manner of saying..is your husband ok, are you worried
    aunt who is a practising catholic (novus order) saying the Jєωs believe in God so they will be saved, she saw the pope with them and apparently their salvation is secure
    at the end of the day the wife isn't to pleased that I'm always the centre of attention ( I disagree, I hardly spoke to anyone the last hour) , that's she's felt to be pitied for having me as a husband
    parents who aren't comfortable of me discussing these issues with relatives...all in all a very productive day I would say...my question is ; is there any faith left in this world ? outside lets say people from this forum and a minority of trad Catholics around the world..my conclusion is that no, there is hardly anyone with any true faith left..we must be in the end times





    You did right instructing him, that was a work of mercy, hopefully he will change his mind. Sorry it's no fun being labeled the religious nut, hang in there.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    relatives
    « Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 02:29:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: gooch
    my question is ; is there any faith left in this world ? outside lets say people from this forum and a minority of trad Catholics around the world..my conclusion is that no, there is hardly anyone with any true faith left..we must be in the end times

    I agree. Outside of my trad Catholic chapel and trad internet forums, I do not see the faith.


    From the Frist Book of Kings 19:18

    Yet I will leave seven thousand men in Israel - all those who have not knelt to Baal or kissed him."



    Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran.  How does that action fit your quote from the Old Testament?


    Offline Elizabeth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4845
    • Reputation: +2194/-15
    • Gender: Female
    relatives
    « Reply #20 on: June 02, 2014, 02:55:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Mithrandylan




    The Catholic Church's law not only forbids Christian burial to those who are cremated, it forbids Christian burial to those who die with instructions to cremate*, whether or not they were actually cremated.

    *That is, instructions which were never redacted or withdrawn.


    Yes, this is one of many softer reasons my family gatherings resemble the Village of the Damned.



    Offline Elizabeth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4845
    • Reputation: +2194/-15
    • Gender: Female
    relatives
    « Reply #21 on: June 02, 2014, 03:02:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: gooch


    cousins giving condolences to my wife in the manner of saying..is your husband ok, are you worried


    That's when you step in and defend her, old boy.  (Because cousin is being mean to your wife.)  

    Apostates everywhere.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41869
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    relatives
    « Reply #22 on: June 02, 2014, 03:40:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It could be worse.  We could have an unbeliever sitting in the Holy See.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    relatives
    « Reply #23 on: June 02, 2014, 04:15:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    It could be worse.  We could have an unbeliever sitting in the Holy See.


    I think Pope Francis does actually believe in something but it's a not the Catholic faith.

    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3628/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    relatives
    « Reply #24 on: June 02, 2014, 04:37:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even the atheist believe in something, they believe there is no God.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    relatives
    « Reply #25 on: June 02, 2014, 07:26:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even Satan believes there is a God, for he fights with Him every day!


    Offline holyfamily

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 24
    • Reputation: +36/-1
    • Gender: Female
    relatives
    « Reply #26 on: June 02, 2014, 07:59:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So very true, but the atheists not only don't believe there is God, they don't believe Satan exists, either.  In fact, neither do some Catholics!

    Offline moneil

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 617
    • Reputation: +456/-43
    • Gender: Male
    relatives
    « Reply #27 on: June 02, 2014, 10:21:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • I have some background in the death care field, as I’ve mentioned before.  I am in NO way arguing for the propriety of cremation, but some statements in the thread I do not believe to be accurate, from my reading and experience.

    Though burial or entombment has always been the prevailing practice of Catholics (indeed until very recently of most people, regardless of their religious persuasions) the Church did not prohibit the practice of cremation until the 19th century, and this prohibition was enshrined in the 1910 Code of Canon Law.  The specific prohibition of cremation (which was VERY rare, somewhat difficult to procure, and could be more expensive than burial at the time) came about because certain sects in Europe, often with Masonic connections, began to practice cremation to show their disbelief in the resurrection of the dead and other Catholic doctrines.

    In spite of the canonical prohibition the Church did on rare occasion grant indults to permit cremation.  One situation was in certain areas of Asia where land burial was difficult and incredible expensive because of population density and where cremation was the prevailing cultural practice and its use was unconnected to opposition to Catholic doctrine.  I am positive of this as I’ve read it in reliable sources pre VII, but I do not have time to research the matter to provide citations.  In any event such indults were rare.

    The 1983 Code of Canon Law, and I realize that many here do not in good faith recognize its validity, removed the explicit prohibition against cremation, as long as it is not chosen for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine, which is not dissimilar to  earlier Catholic understanding.  Further, the Church expresses Her preference for traditional whole body burial or entombment, as stated in Canon 1176, cited in other posts.  Canon 1184 states those who chose the cremation of their bodies for reasons contrary to Christian faith ~ must be deprived of ecclesiastical funerals.

    Current liturgical directives state the Church’s preference that the liturgical rites (Vigil and Mass) be performed prior to cremation, and that the remains be committed to a consecrated space.  I know Novus Ordo priests who refuse to allow a funeral Mass with the urn ~ they will do a committal service only and will say a memorial Mass afterwards (usually one of the regular daily Masses).  I know priests who will refuse a church funeral if the remains are not going to be committed to a consecrated space.

    A good and concise background article from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04481c.htm

    Quote from: Stubborn
    The Jєωs were always the ones who were pro-cremation. They scoff at the Last Judgement by spreading their ashes.  


    Actually, the Jєωs (yes, even the ones today) are more ardently opposed to cremation than Catholics traditionally have been.  Some very orthodox Jєωs are even opposed to embalming, and the traditional Jєωιѕн custom is that burial should take place within 24 hours after death.  I do grant that some “secular Jєωs” and even the liberal Reformed Jєωs are becoming more open to cremation, just as society is in general.  This is a relatively recent trend, and still a minority position.

    Quote from: crossbro
    Quote from: poche
    Quote from: crossbro


    What is the issue about cremation ?- Spreading the ashes ?

    From my experience cremation is chosen mainly because it costs less than a regular burial.

    From the Code of Canon Law;

    1176 §3. The Church earnestly recommends that the pious custom of burying the bodies of the deceased be observed; nevertheless, the Church does not prohibit cremation unless it was chosen for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine.



    I have more experience then you do, spreading ashes is prohibited. In the case of cremation ashes must be interred. It is not cheap to inter ashes in a Catholic cemetery either- 3000-5000 dollars.


    A traditional funeral will cost the same, whether followed by burial or cremation.  There can be a savings with cremation as cremation caskets are generally less expensive than burial caskets (some funeral homes will permit you to purchase a cremation casket for ground burial, some wont).  The savings with cremation comes at the cemetery, as the cost of an urn and a columbarium niche can be significantly less than a ground burial plot, vault, and marker, or the cost of mausoleum entombment.  Also, the cemetery’s “service fee” (opening and closing) will be (or should be) significantly less for an urn placement, as it involves much less work for them than a burial.

    Costs will vary depending on the area and between cemeteries in the same area.  At Holy Cross cemetery in Spokane, WA a burial plot is currently $2,000 (mausoleum crypts start at about $4k I believe), the service fee is around $800.00.  A basic concrete grave liner is around $500, vaults begin at $900 and on up to $12,000 (solid bronze).  A flush with the ground granite marker will start at about $400.  While one can spend A LOT on the memorialization of cremated remains, generally inurnment of cremated remains will be less expensive than burial or entombment of a casket.

    Though costs vary widely Chicago Catholic Cemeteries publish their prices on line, to give an idea:
    http://www.catholiccemeterieschicago.org/pricing.php

    By the way, my burial plot at Holy Cross in Spokane was purchased in 1999 for $765.00 ($1.235 less than today's price), so it pays to plan ahead, as this will result in considerable savings.


    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3628/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    relatives
    « Reply #28 on: June 03, 2014, 11:05:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Speaking of burial for Catholics, I was wondering where those of you plan to be buried?  Meaning, I have heard that some Catholic cemeteries owned at present by the novus ordo enemy restrict Traditional Catholics from burial there.  This is what I have heard, not sure how accurate that is or if it is just isolated places that have that rule.  

    I do know that 30 years ago when my father died a Traditional Catholic, and he owned a plot in an old Catholic cemetery, but still according to the cemetery I had to get a certificate from my local neighbor novus ordo church before the cemetery would allow a burial, even though he owned the plot paid for years prior to his death.  Anyway, what happened was I went to the local church and asked for the certificate, the "priest" there asked  questions about who would be the priest officiating the funeral.  I quickly told him it would be a friend of the family coming in from out of state.  He just smiled, gave me the certificate and said, "when he comes into town tell him to call me, so we can visit."  I smiled, took the certificate and left quickly.  

    Here at Mount St. Michael we have a cemetery on the property, so no problem for C.M.R.I., but I wonder about others who might not be so blessed as to have their own Traditional Catholic cemetery.  It is a blessed feeling when I visit our cemetery and look at all the graves, knowing I actually know just about all the people buried there.  

    I read some time ago some "modern catholic cemeteries"  will allow anyone of any religion to be buried there, except a Traditional Catholic.  The sad thing about it is these cemeteries hold the remains of many souls who died and kept the faith, prior to Vatican II. Yet, today they do not allow the truly Catholics to be buried there.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline crossbro

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1434
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    relatives
    « Reply #29 on: June 03, 2014, 11:11:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Our local diocese cemetery will bury anyone, just so long as the check does not bounce.

    Quote
    Our cemetery has been designed with families of all Christian faiths in mind, who desire to have their loved ones memorialized with dignity.