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Offline curiouscatholic23

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quieting concupiscence
« on: February 05, 2012, 02:26:53 PM »
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    To read about such matters out of curiosity is sinful; perhaps mortally so if you're not engaged (and need to know this information *soon* because of a new state of life you're entering). No, the fact that you plan on getting married someday or have a girlfriend/boyfriend is not sufficient. There's a reason why *engaged couples* learn about this a month before their wedding. It's easier to read about this stuff when concupiscence can be quieted, or at least quieted soon -- catch my drift? Having this stuff sloshing around your head for 3 years before you wedding day is not a smart idea. Neither is it smart to REMIND YOURSELF about stuff like this without GOOD REASON.

    The saints and spiritual Fathers advise that Lust is one sin you must always RUN from -- not fight head-on.


    Without getting too graphic, becuase this is not my intention, what is the church's teaching on foreplay not intrinsically involved in the marital act? I have been reading some websites that say anything beyond the marital act is sinful, and they make some pretty good dogmatic arguments. I havent heard anything that could refute them. This is a very important issue.
    Quieting vs inflaming concupiscence


    Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii (# 17), Dec. 31, 1930: “THE PRIMARY END OF MARRIAGE IS THE PROCREATION AND THE EDUCATION OF CHILDREN... For in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivation of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider, so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.”


    A husband and wife are allowed to quite concupiscence as a secondary motive after the first motive of procreation. This is a dogma proclaimed by Pope Pius XI above. This means to put down the flames of concupiscence, and not to inflame it in any way. The goal is to get the spouse to Heaven, to glorify God, and sanctify one self, and not primarily about pleasure. The gravity of sin, when inflaming concupiscence, depends on the thoughts and actual deeds that a couple consent to during the act of marriage. But husband and wife are never allowed to prevent the conception of a child in any way, either through contraceptives, or by withdrawal, or by the use of NFP. Further, doing acts above what is necessary in the marital act, can be a mortal sin, but if the act is natural, yet done for the sake of lust only, it seems to be at least a venial fault or defect, as the following Church teaching affirms:


    Various Errors on Moral Subjects, Condemned in a decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679: “THE ACT OF MARRIAGE EXERCISED FOR PLEASURE ONLY IS ENTIRELY FREE OF ALL FAULT AND VENIAL DEFECT.” (Denz. 1159) -Condemned by Pope Innocent XI.


    As we can see above, it is at least a fault or venial defect to have relations only for lustful motives. From this can be learned that a couple must have a reason for coming together during the marital act. Thus, they may not just come together for whatever lustful reason they may come to think of, for that would be (at least) a venial defect, according to Catholic teaching. Faults or venial defects open up the soul to graver sins and that is why one must always guard oneself very carefully from falling into faults and defects. A couple can only lawfully participate in the marital act (without any sin or defect) if it's done for the primary purpose of having children, and the secondary purpose of quieting the concupiscence. The secondary motive of quieting concupiscence can follow the primary motive if the spouses choose this, but the secondary motive is not needed to lawfully complete the marital act in the same way as the primary motive of raising children, nor is it meritorious even though it is allowed:


    Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii (# 17), Dec. 31, 1930: “THE PRIMARY END OF MARRIAGE IS THE PROCREATION AND THE EDUCATION OF CHILDREN... For in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivation of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider, so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.”


    Since many couples today, and especially those who call themselves by the name of Catholic, inflame their lust to the fullest both before, during and after the procreative act, as they have been taught by their apostate Vatican II Church and perverted evil theologians, we must condemn this idea in specific detail.


    Notice the words of Pope Pius XI: “quieting of concupiscence”. Those who thus commit acts which are not necessary for the completion of the marital act absolutely commit sin, since they inflame their flesh in a totally sinful way. Therefore, the inflaming of concupiscence is condemned as sinful because it subordinates the secondary end (or purpose) of marriage and the marriage act (the quieting of concupiscence) to other ends. It subordinates the secondary end of marriage to other things, by deliberately attempting to avoid the normal procreative act as their first or only act of marriage, to other things while having marital relations. The inflaming of concupiscence therefore inverts the order established by God Himself. It does the very thing that Pope Pius XI solemnly teaches may not lawfully be done. And this point destroys all of the arguments made by those who defend unnatural, unlawful, non-procreative forms of fore-or-after-play outside of normal intercourse; because all of the arguments made by those who defend inflaming the flesh, focus on the concupiscence and lust within the marriage act itself, and not on the primary or secondary ends of lawful intercourse (the procreation and education of children; and the quieting of concupiscence).


    So what these lustful couples then do by enhancing their pleasure during the marital act, is not the only lawful quieting of concupiscence that Pope Pius XI spoke about, but is the exact opposite, since they first inflame their lust and concupiscence before putting it out, and are therefore then, without a doubt, committing sin (probably even a mortal sin depending on what they thought, did or consented to during their impure act). If such a lust seeking couple is not guilty of mortal sin, then they are guilty of venial sin. For if coming together only for normal lustful motives is at least a venial fault or defect according to Catholic teaching, what then would those unnatural and unnecessary acts be that these lustful people live out during the heat of their shameful lust?


    Various Errors on Moral Subjects, Condemned in a decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679: “THE ACT OF MARRIAGE EXERCISED FOR PLEASURE ONLY IS ENTIRELY FREE OF ALL FAULT AND VENIAL DEFECT.” (Denz. 1159) -Condemned by Pope Innocent XI.


    Although a venial fault does not separate us from God as does a mortal sin, a venial defect can still (if practiced unto death) lead a person to Hell since it might lead him into committing other sins, and since he did not care to stop doing what he knew was a danger to his soul, and even took great delight in it, though he knew it was offending God. To consent to faults and defects, or deliberate venial sins, is of course very bad. We can learn this truth from Jesus Christ himself:


    “Moreover, know that just as all mortal sins are very serious, so too a venial sin is made mortal if a human being delights in it with the intention of persevering.” (Jesus speaking to St. Bridget, Book 7, Chapter 27).


    So, to deliberately live in faults and defects are truly a gateway into committing more grave sins. An even more clearer demonstration of this can be seen in another chapter of St. Bridget's revelations:


    The Son of God speaks to the bride (St. Bridget): “What are you worried and anxious about?" She answered: "I am afflicted by various useless thoughts that I cannot get rid of, and hearing about your terrible judgment upsets me." The Son answered: "This is truly just. Earlier you found pleasure in worldly desires against my will, but now different thoughts are allowed to come to you against your will.

    “But have a prudent fear of God, and put great trust in me, your God, knowing for certain that when your mind does not take pleasure in sinful thoughts but struggles against them by detesting them, then they become a purgation and a crown for the soul. But if you take pleasure in committing even a slight sin, which you know to be a sin, and you do so trusting to your own abstinence and presuming on grace, without doing penance and reparation for it, know that it can become a mortal sin. Accordingly, if some sinful pleasure of any kind comes into your mind, you should right away think about where it is heading and repent...

    “...God hates nothing so much as when you know you have sinned but do not care, trusting to your other meritorious actions, as if, because of them, God would put up with your sin, as if he could not be glorified without you, or as if he would let you do something evil with his permission, seeing all the good deeds you have done, since, even if you did a hundred good deeds for each wicked one, you still would not be able to pay God back for his goodness and love. So, then, maintain a rational fear of God and, even if you cannot prevent these thoughts, then at least bear them patiently and use your will to struggle against them. You will not be condemned because of their entering your head, unless you take pleasure in them, since it is not within your power to prevent them.

    “Again, maintain your fear of God in order not to fall through pride, even though you do not consent to the thoughts. Anyone who stands firm stands by the power of God alone. Thus fear of God is like the gateway into heaven. Many there are who have fallen headlong to their deaths, because they cast off the fear of God and were then ashamed to make a confession before men, although they had not been ashamed to sin before God. Therefore, I shall refuse to absolve the sin of a person who has not cared enough to ask my pardon for a small sin. In this manner, sins are increased through habitual practice, and a venial sin that could have been pardoned through contrition becomes a serious one through a person's negligence and scorn, as you can deduce from the case of this soul who has already been condemned.

    “After having committed a venial and pardonable sin, he augmented it through habitual practice, trusting to his other good works, without thinking that I might take lesser sins into account. Caught in a net of habitual and inordinate pleasure, his soul neither corrected nor curbed his sinful intention, until the time for his sentencing stood at the gates and his final moment was approaching. This is why, as the end approached, his conscience was suddenly agitated and painfully afflicted because he was soon to die and he was afraid to lose the little, temporary good he had loved. Up until a sinner's final moment God abides him, waiting to see if he is going to direct his free will away from his attachment to sin.

    “However, if a soul's will is not corrected, that soul is then confined by an end without end. What happens is that the devil, knowing that each person will be judged according to his conscience and intention, labors mightily at the end of life to distract the soul and turn it away from rectitude of intention, and God allows it to happen, since the soul refused to remain vigilant when it ought to have...” (The Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden, Book 3, Chapter 19).


    So, what does God think of couples who come together during the act of in marriage sinful lust and concupiscence, and about a couple who works on the inflaming of lust (rather than the quieting of their lust)?


    “They seek the warmth and sɛҳuąƖ lust that will perish and love the flesh that will be eaten by worms... When the couple comes to bed, my Spirit leaves them immediately and the spirit of impurity approaches instead because they only come together for the sake of lust and do not discuss or think about anything else with each other. But my mercy is still with them if they will be converted to me. Because of my great love, I place a living soul created by my power into their seed. Sometimes I let evil parents give birth to good children, but more often, evil children are born of evil parents, since these children imitate the evil and unrighteous deeds of their parents as much as they are able and would imitate it even more if my patience allowed them. Such a married couple will never see my face unless they repent. For there is no sin so heavy or grave that penitence and repentance does not wash it away.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 1, Chapter 26).


    A couple may therefore then not do anything before, during or after the procreative act that is against the primary or secondary purpose of marriage, the begetting of children and the quieting of concupiscence. So, contrary to modern day notion and common opinion (even amongst those who dare to call themselves Catholic), a husband and a wife are never allowed to help themselves with their hands or do other things to enhance their lust, or in this way make themselves “ready” before the act (as they so call it and their sinful excuse is). If a couple really believes in God, they should pray to God before coming together, and God would hear their prayers and make them ready, without any further need by the couple to inflame their lust in a sinful way. Lubricants are of course also acceptable and the non sinful way to use if there is a problem to complete the marital act. However, lubricants that increase the sɛҳuąƖ pleasure and that now are being manufactured and sold are of course totally unacceptable. Likewise, if a woman was not able to quiet her concupiscence before the fulfillment of the procreative act, it is unlawful for her (or her husband) to help herself afterwards. If husband and wife engage in unlawful activities such as masturbation or any other unnecessary act, they committed a mortal sin. Barren couples and people with defects or old age still fulfills the primary end of marriage through normal intercourse by wishing for children and by not being against conception if it should occur. Husband and wife are forbidden to indulge in unnecessary acts, e.g. to masturbate themselves or their spouse during the procreative act and in this way enhance their lust. Masturbation is as forbidden during the procreative act as it is at any other time for any person. To avoid falling into mortal sin, a couple need to learn to pray to God for relief in their concupiscence and lust. If you really want help from God, He will help you and remove the concupiscence and lust from you. It would also help very much to offer up penances to God like fasting and eating less tasty food in order to acquire this goal. These small penances coupled with spiritual reading and prayer will help a couple stem sinful inclinations as long as they stay out of mortal and venial sin.


    It is of greatest importance that husband and wife are not influenced by the evil demonic teachings that is rampant in the secular world and even amongst those who call themselves "Catholic" or even traditional "Catholic". These people will tell you things such as: “That almost nothing is wrong in the marital act so long as the primary purpose of the act was achieved at some point. Whatever happens before, during or afterwards, was part of that act and therefore licit and permitted.” This is clearly false, and have been refuted with Catholic Dogma (Pope Pius XI), and Catholic teaching condemning the idea that the marital act - performed for lust only - was without any fault or defect (quoted below). Anyone that therefore listens to or follows these demonic peoples teachings or agrees with them, will lose their souls, since they then reject the natural law God has imprinted on their hearts.


    Various Errors on Moral Subjects, Condemned in a decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679: “THE ACT OF MARRIAGE EXERCISED FOR PLEASURE ONLY IS ENTIRELY FREE OF ALL FAULT AND VENIAL DEFECT.” (Denz. 1159) -Condemned by Pope Innocent XI.


    The Demon of Lust


    In Tobias, we can clearly see that there is a demon of lust, and that this demon hath power over certain individuals who come together for various reasons during the marital act: “Then the angel Raphael said to him [Tobias]: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power.” People who thus shut God out from themselves and their hearts, and who do things during, before or after the marital act which they normally wouldn't do if they really believed that God were present with them, over them the devil hath power. If concupiscence and lust is not controlled and in some sense fought against, it will almost always end in mortal sin, because all control is lost. “Go not after thy lusts, but turn away from thy own will.” (Eclcus. 18:30)


    Many are handed over to the devil before, during, or after the marital act though, but this is only when they do more than what is necessary to complete the procreative act or if their only purpose is to satisfy their lust, or if they consent to thoughts that are sinful. For we can clearly see how persons that are living in deliberate venial sins are handed over to the devil in St. Bridget's Revelations:


    Jesus speaking to St. Bridget: “Moreover, know that just as all mortal sins are very serious, so too a venial sin is made mortal if a human being delights in it with the intention of persevering. … Therefore, know for very certain that as often as they daub their faces with antimony and other extraneous coloring [makeup], some of the infusion of the Holy Spirit is diminished in them and the devil draws nearer to them. In fact, as often as they adorn themselves in disorderly and indecent clothing and so deform their bodies, the adornment of their souls is diminished and the devil's power is increased.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 7, Chapter 27).


    Most couples who sin in the marriage act undoubtedly also fall for the sins of vanity, immodest clothing, and use of makeup condemned by Jesus Christ above, since these people really are lovers of the flesh, and not of God. However, in the above statement, we can clearly see how those people who commit deliberate venial sins, are in fact diminishing their love of God, and beauty of soul, and that these people in fact are handed over to the devil for their sins: “some of the infusion of the Holy Spirit is diminished in them and the devil draws nearer to them.” This is an important point to remember. For as often as a couple goes farther than what is licit or permitted (non-sinful) in the procreative act, they always commit a sin (at least venially), and will thus as a necessity be drawing closer to the devil (unless repentance is followed). Therefore, it is of great importance that you learn to control your lust. Risking eternal damnation for a momentary, deliberate venial or mortal pleasure or sin is not worth it, and is a horribly bad choice to make:


    Jesus Christ speaking to St. Bridget: “Therefore, two holes will be opened in him. Through the first there will enter into him every punishment earned for his least sin up to his greatest, inasmuch as he exchanged his Creator for his own lust. Through the second there will enter into him every kind of pain and shame, and no divine consolation or charity will ever come to him, inasmuch as he loved himself rather than his Creator. His life will last forever and his punishment will last forever, for all the saints have turned away from him.' My bride, see how miserable those people will be who despise me and how great will be the pain they purchase at the price of so little pleasure!” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 2, Chapter 9).


    So, the more pleasure and sensual gratification a person seek to derive from the sɛҳuąƖ act, the more will the devil's power over him be increased, and the more the sin is increased (with the intention of persevering), the more the devil's power over him is increasing also, until what was a venial and pardonable sin, becomes a mortal and damnable sin. Therefore, if you already understand that you live in deliberate venial sin with respect to sɛҳuąƖ pleasure, you need to learn controlling your lust immediately, keeping it within the range of what is licit and permitted within a marriage, and not by going any further. If you follow these things put down in this article, and in the other here, you will be keeping the marriage duty within the range of licit marital relations.


    A couple then, when coming together, should not be concerned about the momentary pleasure they derive from the act, or be working on enhancing it in unusual ways, but should rather be focusing their mind on God and to love Him and please Him, by feeling close to Him. Consequently, if a couple wish to be perfect, they should pray to God to keep them from sinning during the act, and that they may produce offspring to the honor and glory of God, and that He might minimize the amount of pleasure they will feel during the act, so that they may not grow attached to it. God might grant this prayer to a couple if they so wish, but if they are not granted this gift (the begetting of children or the minimizing of pleasure), they should still be focusing their pleasure and love towards God, and not on themselves. God demands of us to not forget Him during the procreative act. People usually tend to forget about God when they have too much attention on themselves, or on their spouse, or the pleasure derived from different acts. We can read the following important points regarding this in the book of Tobias: “For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power.” (Tobias 6:17). Notice the word “from their mind”, in the mind (or heart) are usually all our thoughts, and God wishes us to have Him there. The best thing then, and which God demands of you, is to think about Him and to love Him during the whole procreative act, and husband and wife should not be ashamed of doing so. Is not God better or more worthy of being desired or lusted after than your husband or wife will ever be? The more a person loves God, the more will that person desire to be close to God, during all times. One of the greatest mistakes many couples undoubtedly do during the procreative act, is that they strive to be close with their spouse rather than with God (who knows everything and sees everything), or that they rather think of pleasing their spouse more than pleasing God (who created them and redeemed them, yes even died for them).


    Prayer before Marital Relations


    “Then Tobias exhorted the virgin, and said to her: Sara, arise, and let us pray to God today, and tomorrow, and the next day: because for these three nights we are joined to God: and when the third night is over, we will be in our own wedlock. For we are the children of saints, and we must not be joined together like heathens that know not God.” Tobias 8:4-5


    Jesus tells us of the necessity of praying always (Lk 18:1). We are never to cease praying (1 Th 5:17). Thus, Christian married couples will always have marital relations in the context of prayer. Tobias prayer before relations with his wife is an example of this (Tb 8:4-8). In prayer, we express our weakness and God's power (2 Cor 12:9) to rectify sinful problems in marital relations.


    Praying the Rosary before, during and after intercourse is highly recommended since it is the most powerful prayer ever given to mankind. Granted, it might be hard to pray during the act, at least in a worthy and proper manner, but spouses should do their best to at least acknowledge the presence of God Almighty and His Mother and loving them deeply during the act, by expressing loving words to God and His Blessed Mother, supplicating Them for their help to resist sinful inclinations. Husband and wife should not be ashamed of having recourse to the Blessed Virgin and Our Lord during intercourse. In contrast, what better thing can there possibly be for a couple then to always have God and the thought of loving God in their minds during all times?


    The importance of Loving God during intercourse and at all times


    We can read the following interesting points of the importance of loving and thinking about God during the procreative act in St. Bridget's Revelations:


    The Mother of God speaks to St. Bridget about Her parents: “When an angel revealed to them that they would give birth to the Virgin from whom the salvation of the world would come, they would rather have died than to come together in carnal love; lust was dead in them. I assure you that when they did come together, it was because of divine love and because of the angel’s message, not out of carnal desire, but against their will and out of a holy love for God. In this way, my flesh was put together by their seed and through divine love.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 1, Chapter 9).


    Although you will not be spared from feeling lust or concupiscence as it happened to Anna and Joachim, this should in no way hinder you from loving and desiring God during the procreative act, and should be the primary purpose along with love of children for a couple, rather than desiring or lusting at your spouse. Most couples, however, choose to think about themselves or their spouse in an inordinate way and consequently to love themselves or their spouse during the procreative act. Anna and Joachim, however, clearly chose the best part by loving and thinking about God. If we think about God during the act, then our love will be directed towards Him, which is the best part. God's love never dies! So it's clearly a great mistake to seek love from a fleshly object that will rot and be eaten by worms, rather than seeking it from God, who lives and reigns forever and ever! Husband and wife should thus love their spouse, their own, and their children's souls, and not their bodies that will rot and be eaten by worms in the grave. This is an advice to those couples who wish to be perfect, as Anna and Joachim were perfect.


    St. Jerome: "Do you imagine that we approve of any sɛҳuąƖ intercourse except for the procreation of children? He who is too ardent a lover of his own wife is an adulterer [of his God]."


    As we can see above, he who loves his wife too much, or in other words, he who loves his wife more than he loves God, is in fact an adulterer of his God. Tell me, dear reader, whom do you love during the act, God, or your spouse? Have the thought of God or that he is present ever even entered your mind during intercourse? Have this absence of God's presence in your thought also driven you into committing shameful sins by the inflaming of concupiscence in unlawful ways? Indeed, those couples who doesn't shut God out from themselves or their hearts during intercourse, will less likely fall into other sins during the act. For if it is God we love during intercourse, it is him we are seeking to please, and not ourselves or our spouse.


    “He that loveth father or mother more than me [Jesus], is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:37)


    It is also evident that the offspring of holy and devout parents will receive a great many graces and benefits because of the parents' holiness, and that according to many saints, lustful parents will effect their children, inflicting sinful impulses on the child. Every parent who love their children or their future children, should do their utmost to live in holiness, knowing that every act they will ever do, can have an effect on their children, for better or for worse. Only in Hell will bad parents understand how their acts effected their children, but then it is sadly too late.


    “Sometimes I [Jesus] let evil parents give birth to good children, but more often, evil children are born of evil parents, since these children imitate the evil and unrighteous deeds of their parents as much as they are able and would imitate it even more if my patience allowed them. Such a married couple will never see my face unless they repent. For there is no sin so heavy or grave that penitence and repentance does not wash it away.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 1, Chapter 26).


    Love is necessary for Salvation


    For a person to be Saved, he needs above all to love his God with all his mind, and with all his strength, and with all his heart. If any person fails to do this (in that he loves something more than God, whatever it may be or however small it may be), he will not be Saved. Therefore, it is of the greatest importance that people really start to do everything in their might and power to acquire and foster the love of God in their hearts, by loving God very deeply always and at all times, and by praying to God for help in loving Him worthily. If a person can have deep love for their husband or wife, or for their children, by having a desire for them constantly, then, likewise, should a person then have no problem in growing an even greater love and longing for God in his heart, if he only so wish and desires. We can read the following important words of loving and desiring God in context of marriage in the wonderful Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden:


    “For that reason, I [Jesus] wish to turn to the spiritual marriage, the kind that is appropriate for God to have with a chaste soul and chaste body. There are seven good things in it opposed to the evils mentioned above[1]: First, there is no desire for beauty of form or bodily beauty or lustful sights, but only for the sight and love of God. Second, there is no desire to possess anything else than what is needed to survive, and just the necessities with nothing in excess. Third, they avoid vain and frivolous talk. Fourth, they do not care about seeing friends or relatives, but I am their love and desire. Fifth, they desire to keep the humility inwardly in their conscience and outwardly in the way they dress. Sixth, they never have any will of leading lustful lives. Seventh, they beget sons and daughters for their God through their good behavior and good example and through the preaching of spiritual words.


    They preserve their faith undefiled when they stand outside the doors of my church where they give me their consent and I give them mine. They go up to my altar when they enjoy the spiritual delight of my Body and Blood in which delight they wish to be of one heart and one body and one will with me, and I, true God and man, mighty in heaven and on earth, shall be as the third with them and will fill their heart. The worldly spouses begin their marriage in lustful desires like brute beasts, and even worse than brute beasts! But these spiritual spouses begin in love and fear of God and do not bother to please anyone but me. The evil spirit fills and incites those in the worldly marriage to carnal lust where there is nothing but unclean stench, but those in the spiritual marriage are filled with my Spirit and inflamed with the fire of my love that will never fail them.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 1, Chapter 26).


    So, then, what are the seven evil fruits of a worldly marriage in comparison to the seven good fruits of the spiritual marriage mentioned above?


    [1] “But people in this age are joined in marriage for seven [evil] reasons: First, because of facial beauty. Second, because of wealth. Third, because of the despicable pleasure and indecent joy they get out of their impure intercourse. Fourth, because of feasts with friends and uncontrolled gluttony. Fifth, because of vanity in clothing and eating, in joking and entertainment and games and other vanities. Sixth, for the sake of procreating children but not to raise them for the honor of God or good works but for worldly riches and honor. Seventh, they come together for the sake of lust and they are like brute beasts in their lustful desires.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 1, Chapter 26).


    Only ungodly couples, who would want to gratify their fleshly lust to the fullest during the act, without even once thinking about God, would want to shut God out from their hearts or their minds. God is always present for every action we will ever make. Let's get this concept imprinted on our minds.


    “I am one God in three Persons, and one in Divinity with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Just as it is impossible for the Father to be separated from the Son and the Holy Spirit to be separated from them both, and as it is impossible for warmth to be separated from fire, so it is impossible for these spiritual spouses to be separated from me; I am always as the third with them. Once my body was ravaged and died in torments, but it will never more be hurt or die. Likewise, those who are incorporated into me with a true faith and a perfect will shall never die away from me; for wherever they stand or sit or walk, I am always as the third with them.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, Book 1, Chapter 26).


    Jesus demands of us that we love Him even more than we love ourselves or our wife or our children:


    “He that loveth father or mother more than me [Jesus], is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:37)


    “but I alone was all their good and pleasure and perfect delight.” (St. Bridget's Revelations, on Adam and Eve before the fall – Book 1, Chapter 26).


    The meaning of the passage above, wasn't that a couple couldn't delight or feel pleasure in/from God anymore, but rather that before the fall, God was the only delight and pleasure man ever felt and desired. After the fall, God had to compete with human concupiscence and fleshly lust. God is a jealous God, and he wants us to love and desire Him above everything else. So, to love God during all times, even during intercourse, is an advice to those couples who wish to be perfect, and for those couples who ardently longs and desires to be united with God through ecstatic love. Consequently, those people who choose to despise and disregard what's been covered here, seek then not to be united with the eternal, incorruptible God (who lives and reigns forever and ever), but with a fleshly worthless object (that will rot and be eaten by worms in a grave).



    Offline Alex

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    quieting concupiscence
    « Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 06:40:02 PM »
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  • Then why did God give the pleasurable feeling of sex if it is even wrong to enjoy it with your spouse?

    And a lot of women can not achieve pleasure unless they are helped. So why should it be that the husband gets to experience pleasure but not the wife?

    And how on earth does one pray the Rosary during the act?


    Offline Pyrrhos

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    « Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 07:13:53 PM »
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  • It depends on what you mean with "intrinsically involved".

    Everything that does not prevent conception is licit. As it is biologically impossible for women to fall into the sin of Onan strictly speaking, she can consume the marital act with her husband as many times as she may want, as long as conception is made possible by the consummation of the marital act through the husband.


    Attached is an excerpt of Fr. Prümmer OP, "Theologia Moralis", V.3, "De matrimonii obligationibus" p. 505 (Herder, Barcelona 1955)

    "Every accessory act, may they be mutual or solitary...may be used. The reason is obvious, if the end is licit, then also all honest means are not prohibited to obtain the same end."
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 07:53:38 PM »
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  • CuriousCatholic,

    Your post sounds like Jansenist error.

    In centuries past, you had "Jansenists" who were basically "Catholic Calvinists" who thought all pleasure and joy were to be shunned. God was Someone to be feared, not loved, and Communion was to be received yearly, if at all.

    Men honestly fell into this tendency with a straight face then. They were serious. They thought it was the truth. Why should ANY OF US believe it's somehow impossible today?

    Especially with hedonism, liberalism, etc. so rampant today -- it's very likely that many would arrive at Jansenism (more or less) simply as a knee-jerk overreaction.

    Long story short -- I don't know whose crazy opinions you're giving ear to -- the Dimond Brothers perhaps? -- but they aren't Catholic doctrine.

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    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 08:02:42 PM »
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  • I didn't read it but if it's about what the thread subtitle says it's not fit to be discussed here, this kind of theology is meant for the use of priests in guiding penitents.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 08:03:38 PM »
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  • CuriousCatholic --

    I appreciate your wanting to know the truth, etc.

    But I must insist -- source please, or the OP gets deleted.

    All my considerable knowledge and training tell me it's not Catholic doctrine -- and worse, it's dangerous error, the more dangerous since many people could be led astray by it.

    You probably haven't formally studied Church History as I have (with actual priest professors) -- let me tell you, most heresies sound VERY appealing because they have a lot of truth in them. And most heretics appear very pious in their bearing -- how else could they get their heresy off the ground?

    I wouldn't feel bad about deleting a post of dangerous Jansenist error.

    If I'm to leave this up at all, I want to at least know where it came from. Dimond Bros.?
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    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 09:38:42 PM »
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  • What business does an unmarried layman have, with "NO" theological training have reading or discussing like this?

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 09:42:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    What business does an unmarried layman have, with "NO" theological training have reading or discussing like this?


    Matt- no source has been provided. I'm in favor of having this deleted; this guy is getting really egregious with his posts lately. Go get the sacraments CuriousCatholic, our Lord is waiting for all of us, including you- regardless of what the heretics and devil-servants at MHFM tell you.


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #8 on: February 05, 2012, 09:52:08 PM »
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  • Ok -- MaterDominici did a bit of googling and found out where this came from:

    Hietanen (who was banned from CathInfo for heresy, particularly Puritanism)

    Hietanen spouted this SAME CRAP months ago and got banned -- and now that the error re-surfaced, it turns out to be HIM AGAIN!

    So it's not several people who believe this -- just the same kook with a website.

    Who runs the website? Hietanen and 2 other laymen (total: 3 laymen) who were PROTESTANT JUST 6 YEARS AGO!

    Long story short -- it is prudent, safe, and praiseworthy to ignore this drivel.
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    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #9 on: February 05, 2012, 09:56:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Ok -- MaterDominici did a bit of googling and found out where this came from:

    Hietanen (who was banned from CathInfo for heresy, particularly Puritanism)

    Hietanen spouted this SAME CRAP months ago and got banned -- and now that the error re-surfaced, it turns out to be HIM AGAIN!

    So it's not several people who believe this -- just the same kook with a website.

    Who runs the website? Hietanen and 2 other laymen (total: 3 laymen) who were PROTESTANT JUST 6 YEARS AGO!

    Long story short -- it is prudent, safe, and praiseworthy to ignore this drivel.


    Nice- now CuriousCatholic has moved from posting crap from MHFM to crap from Hietanen.... C'mon man- you need to back away from this stuff.

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 10:00:32 PM »
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  • Mater skimmed over their website -- it's full of retractions.

    They made some videos about Nibiru a few years ago, complete with bad music for a soundtrack. They claimed that the planet would have aliens on it -- they have since retracted that, and regretted their choice of music "We were worldly back then" they said.

    Like I said, these guys ADMIT they were full of it on many subjects -- I'm just waiting for them to retract this latest nonsense. They are by no means qualified to be teaching moral theology. About as far from it as you can get!
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    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 10:03:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    They are by no means qualified to be teaching moral theology. About as far from it as you can get!


    I guess where I'm getting frustrated is what to do about a guy like CC who continually chooses the worst sources for information, and seems to be increasingly posting this nonsense on here...

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 05:57:20 PM »
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  • In the vernacular Moral Theology manuals that I have encountered, most of chapters, articles, etc., dealing with the "delicate issues" regarding the 6th and 9th Commandments, and the questions regarding the exercise of the marital rights, remained in Latin. There was a fear that the laity may encounter such manuals and read these things out of vain curiosity and unto their spiritual injury, and these manuals strictly speaking were never meant for all the laity to read. It was only later that theology manuals were written specifically for lay audiences, which in hindsight was ultimately a portent of the phenomenon of "lay theologians" that facilitated the fruition of "Vatican II."

    It's creepy how now almost anyone can post on the internet such grave matters dealing with such delicate subjects, reserved in the past only for Spiritual Directors and theologians.

    The laity ought to be educated in Moral Theology, but according to their individual capacities and only what immediately concerns them (such as the subjects of the Commandments in general, prayer, the Precepts of the Church, etc.); and this ought to be done as much as possible by Pastors of souls who use books of approved and laudable authors, and who know how to prudently direct such souls in the ways of the interior life.

    However, the subject of the original post ought to be reserved, as has been written already, to the private discourse between the penitent and the Father Confessor and Spiritual Director.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 06:52:08 PM »
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  • In the old days, the manuals of moral theology used to handle these matters in Latin, in order that they. Not scandalize the faithful.

    I have read none of these posts except the intro warning.

    I my opinion, such. Subject matter is the providence of a spiritual director or priestly consultation, and ought not be broadcast publicly.

    I could have saved the entire thread with this single admonition: impurity can only be over come with fasting and prayer.  One alone will not work, and may even excite.

    Jesus: "this kind can only be overcome with prayer and fasting."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 06:58:11 PM »
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  • Quote
    There was a fear that the laity may encounter such manuals and read these things out of vain curiosity and unto their spiritual injury, and these manuals strictly speaking were never meant for all the laity to read.


    That may be, but there is no doubt that in a time of confusion the laity are going to want to try to find answers without relying to heavily on priests who in this day and age are known to tell people what they want to hear more often than not.

    As for it being in Latin, that's hardly going to stop any learned person from reading such matters?  At least in the past, it wouldn't have stopped anyone who was really learned?

    I think the reality is that these matters have never truly been settled, but that Jansenism should not be encouraged.  Tomas Sanchez also wrote about these things, his views I think were considered bordering on laxism, and his works were placed on the index. (but his positions were not condemned)