Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5

Author Topic: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation  (Read 3925 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 10306
  • Reputation: +6216/-1742
  • Gender: Male
Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2018, 10:53:57 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • The “good motives” had to be agreed to by the couple’s priest and they couldn’t use “the rhythm method” (the pre-V2 term) without permission or they would commit sin.
    Logged

    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #16 on: October 16, 2018, 10:56:07 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Sorry Tradicahan, what I said was redundant.  I meant to say that (Pope Pius XII said) the mere fact that periodic continence is not an offense against the nature of the marital act is not enough to "guarantee the rectitude of intention and the unobjectionable morality of the motives themselves" (from his address to the Italian Midwives).  In other words it isn't enough that periodic continence isn't contraceptive-- its lawful use depends on a serious and legitimate reason, since there is a positive precept in marriage to multiply.
    Logged
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #17 on: October 16, 2018, 10:57:55 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2018, 10:53:57 AM
    The “good motives” had to be agreed to by the couple’s priest and they couldn’t use “the rhythm method” (the pre-V2 term) without permission or they would commit sin.
    .
    Yes, it was typically the sort of thing that could not be undertaken unless and except the couple's pastor approved, and at that, at least one priest argued that the morally safest scenario would include a couple already known to be especially virtuous and pious.  See Fr. Calkins (1948 ) article on the subject: https://sspx.org/en/nfp-unhappy-compromise
    Logged
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mercyandjustice

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 160
    • Reputation: +37/-17
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #18 on: October 16, 2018, 11:43:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 16, 2018, 09:28:50 AM
    False.  There's no exclusion in Pius XI's teaching for "extraordinary circuмstances".  The burden is to explain with any particular practice how the primary end is not subordinated to the secondary.  That has never been done for NFP.  Closest anyone comes is to claim that this isn't the case if someone is "open to life" (code language for ... would not have an abortion if NFP failed).  But one could say the same thing of someone who would not have an abortion after a child is conceived because of a faulty condom.
    Why no exclusions or exceptions? Even before Pius XI couples were allowed to postpone sex to infertile periods. And Pius XII taught the same. 
    Logged

    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #19 on: October 16, 2018, 12:02:59 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on October 16, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
    Why no exclusions or exceptions? Even before Pius XI couples were allowed to postpone sex to infertile periods. And Pius XII taught the same.
    .
    There are no exclusions or exceptions to negative precepts.  Negative precepts are, as the name implies, precepts which instruct you not to do something.  The proscription against sinning against the natural law (which is what contraception is) is not something that can ever be excused from, just as it can never be excused to sodomize, etc.  The non-excluding nature of negative precepts is a very old principle, probably most popularized by Aquinas.  It is crucial to moral philosophy in general.  
    .
    But what is crucial in the discussion over periodic continence is that it (having sterile relations) simply isn't against the natural law.  So it isn't included in the types of behaviors which would be condemned by Casti Conubii ("the pill", condoms, etc.).  The marital act itself is conducted in the natural way which is what counts for purposes of evaluating its intrinsics, and intrinsics are what Pope Pius XI is talking about in Casti Conubii.  There is no negative precept against periodic continence.  What one is being excused from in the case of periodic continence is not the negative precept against contraception, but the positive precept to procreate.  Positive precepts are distinguished from negative ones in that they command you to do something.  E.g. "go to mass on Sundays."  The nature of positive precepts is that they can, in principle, be dispensed with.  As Aquinas says, they bind always but not in all cases.  A serious enough reason can excuse someone from the duty to procreate ("be fruitful and multiply"), just as a serious enough reason can excuse someone from the duty to attend mass.
    .
    ETA: to be clear, you have the right conclusion (i.e., that periodic continence is lawful).  It's just the way that you're getting there that doesn't work.  It's not lawful because contraception is allowed in extreme situations, it's lawful (in brief) because it isn't contraception and because the duty to procreate can, for a sufficient reason, be dispensed from.
    Logged
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 12:35:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2018, 10:53:57 AM
    The “good motives” had to be agreed to by the couple’s priest and they couldn’t use “the rhythm method” (the pre-V2 term) without permission or they would commit sin.
    What are these good motives for using NFP?
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #21 on: October 16, 2018, 12:38:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on October 16, 2018, 10:56:07 AM
    Sorry Tradicahan, what I said was redundant.  I meant to say that (Pope Pius XII said) the mere fact that periodic continence is not an offense against the nature of the marital act is not enough to "guarantee the rectitude of intention and the unobjectionable morality of the motives themselves" (from his address to the Italian Midwives).  In other words it isn't enough that periodic continence isn't contraceptive-- its lawful use depends on a serious and legitimate reason, since there is a positive precept in marriage to multiply.
    Very few people will understand this language, it is not clear communication, you'll have to spell it out. I asked what are the "good" motives. 
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #22 on: October 16, 2018, 12:38:22 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote
    Under ordinary NO circuмstances can the primary end shouldn't be subjugated.  (As in the case of contraception)

    But in extraordinary circuмstances, with serious reasons, couples may practice periodical abstinence. (because this isn't contraception).

    Conclusion:  In the case of period abstinence, the primary purpose isn't subjugated, which is why it's allowed in extreme cases.
    This is how Mithrandylan's excellent explanation affects your original statement.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #23 on: October 16, 2018, 12:42:59 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1

    • Quote
    What are these good motives for using NFP?
    There are no virtuous motives for using NFP, if that's what you're asking.  But there are "good" motives in the natural sense by using NFP (in extreme cases only).  For example, if a woman's life would be in danger by having a pregnancy, then IN THEORY, a priest could give permission to practice NFP FOR A SPECIFIC TIME, in coordination with a doctor, so that the couple would not sin against chastity.  In this case, the use of NFP could prevent death and mortal sin...only for a certain, specific time period.
    Logged

    Online Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 01:04:41 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 16, 2018, 12:38:02 PM
    Very few people will understand this language, it is not clear communication, you'll have to spell it out. I asked what are the "good" motives.
    .
    There's no exhaustive list but in general this is what Pope Pius XII mentioned:
    "Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life." http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12midwives.htm
    .
    Serious risk of death to the mother seems an obvious one.  Or, if the family would literally become homeless if another mouth needed to be fed.  As was mentioned earlier, it was not the sort of things couples could just "do"-- they would need to consult with their pastor so he could gauge their genuine need and also their disposition.  Putting off procreation because you need a new yacht or because you don't want to cut cable are obviously not legitimate reasons. 
    Logged
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 01:05:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2018, 12:42:59 PM
    ... there are "good" motives in the natural sense by using NFP (in extreme cases only).  For example, if a woman's life would be in danger by having a pregnancy, then IN THEORY, a priest could give permission to practice NFP FOR A SPECIFIC TIME, in coordination with a doctor, so that the couple would not sin against chastity.  In this case, the use of NFP could prevent death and mortal sin...only for a certain, specific time period.
    That's it then? That is the only good motive, averting death? Your time factor "only for a certain, specific time period" would not apply to a person in danger of death, since that danger remains for years (Elizabeth mother of St. John was in her 80's). You must have other "good" reasons in your list that are "only allowed for a certain, specific time period", please spell them all out.
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 01:09:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on October 16, 2018, 01:04:41 PM
    .
    There's no exhaustive list but in general this is what Pope Pius XII mentioned:
    "Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life." http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12midwives.htm
    .
    Serious risk of death to the mother seems an obvious one.  Or, if the family would literally become homeless if another mouth needed to be fed.  As was mentioned earlier, it was not the sort of things couples could just "do"-- they would need to consult with their pastor so he could gauge their genuine need and also their disposition.  Putting off procreation because you need a new yacht or because you don't want to cut cable are obviously not legitimate reasons.
    Pius XII was a door opener to Vatican II, the new mass and much more, I do not use him as a source for anything. If what you say is true, there must be other popes in the prior 1900+ years for you to quote. Please continue without Pius XII.
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #27 on: October 16, 2018, 03:07:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    That's it then? That is the only good motive, averting death? Your time factor "only for a certain, specific time period" would not apply to a person in danger of death, since that danger remains for years (Elizabeth mother of St. John was in her 80's). You must have other "good" reasons in your list that are "only allowed for a certain, specific time period", please spell them all out.
    I agree with you, I’m just pointing out what Pius XII said, which is not contrary to the natural law, even if it “toes the line”.  The # of couples which would “qualify” to use Rhythm/NFP under Pius XII’s rules is EXTREMELY LOW.  Much like the # of legitimate annulments which happened when the Church was orthodox was NEAR NIL.  But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t reasons for annulment nor for use of NFP.  
    Logged

    Offline Mercyandjustice

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 160
    • Reputation: +37/-17
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #28 on: October 16, 2018, 03:58:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2018, 12:38:22 PM
    This is how Mithrandylan's excellent explanation affects your original statement.
    That makes a ton of sense. Thanks
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41869
    • Reputation: +23922/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #29 on: October 16, 2018, 04:42:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • #1) subjugated is the wrong word (it's subordinated)

    #2) gratuitous assertion that periodic abstinence doesn't subordinate the primary end to the secondary is not proven

    In deliberate "periodic" abstinence, the formal intent is to enjoy the secondary ends of marital relations while precluding the primary.  Consequently, the secondary ends of marriage become the primary end.

    One thing to keep in mind is that back in the day, the science of periodic abstinence was not established.  Now they have it down to the point where it has the same rate of conception prevention as artificial birth control.  That's also must be taken into account.  It's one thing to make it "less likely" to conceive vs. making it practically impossible.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
    « previous next »