1- Aren't fast and partial abstinence the same thing? One full meal with meat and 2 smaller meatless meals? So why are they spoken of as if they were different? They say, day of fast with partial abstinence. Isn't that redundant?

2- When during fast or abstinence, it says that you can only have 1 full meal and 2 smaller ones that combined do not equal the main one, does this mean that you cannot eat anything else at all, like, a cookie or chips or a banana or a little bread?

3- Does this still apply if you wake up at 5:30-6am and go to sleep until 11 or 12pm? During that whole time, you can only have 1 full meal and 2 smaller ones which combined are still smaller than the main one?

4- I always have problems calculating the 2 smaller ones; it seems to me that they would only be a few bites since it is very easy that they can amount to the main one. I think that you could also get away with eating almost 2 plates. The "main one" would be a full plate, and then you would just take off a little bit from that, and then divide it in two. Would that be correct?

Fast and abstinence are different. When youfast you limit your caloric intake. I full meal and two smaller meals that do not equal that larger meal. no snacks in between. Abstinence refers when we give up flesh meat. Technically you could stuff yourself with lobster and shrimp and still be observing abstinence.  

Eh, don't worry about it. I love this explanation of the 'new' crazy rules, but I think this Insanity Wolf has the right spirit:

I'm in blue.

Quote from: Boloki

1- Aren't fast and partial abstinence the same thing? One full meal with meat and 2 smaller meatless meals? So why are they spoken of as if they were different? They say, day of fast with partial abstinence. Isn't that redundant?

No, it isn't the same.  Fasting excludes any food not taken at meal time.  Partial abstinence simply means that you only take one meal with flesh meat.  While as far as I'm aware, there are no instances of fasting and no abstinence, there is nevertheless a distinction between the two simply because partial abstience simply means you can only take flesh meat with one meal, though you can eat as much as you'd like (without being gluttonous, of course).  And of course, full abstinence means you don't take any flesh meat at all.  But both are distinct from fasting because they speak to the quality of food, whereas fasting speaks to the quantity of it.

2- When during fast or abstinence, it says that you can only have 1 full meal and 2 smaller ones that combined do not equal the main one, does this mean that you cannot eat anything else at all, like, a cookie or chips or a banana or a little bread?

Correct.  Any food taken not with a meal breaks the fast.  Abstinence simply refers to not eating flesh meat-- though you may eat as much and as often as you please (again, without being gluttonous).

3- Does this still apply if you wake up at 5:30-6am and go to sleep until 11 or 12pm? During that whole time, you can only have 1 full meal and 2 smaller ones which combined are still smaller than the main one?

Correct.

4- I always have problems calculating the 2 smaller ones; it seems to me that they would only be a few bites since it is very easy that they can amount to the main one. I think that you could also get away with eating almost 2 plates. The "main one" would be a full plate, and then you would just take off a little bit from that, and then divide it in two. Would that be correct?

More or less, yes.  A canon law book I read put a full meal at eight ounces I think, but freely admitted that such a measurement is not definitive, and there is room to have more or less, depending on the person.

Best way to think of it is to plan your main meal, and then have your two smaller meals equal that.  Don't wing it if you don't have to.  On an ember day like today, I had breakfast (small meal) and then didn't eat again until dinner (main meal) and then if I need it, I'll have a third meal, which is actually more of a 'snack' (though it is not) and it is simply used as some basic sustenance to make it through the rest of the night.

Got it. Thanks.

The only thing you confused me with was this: Best way to think of it is to plan your main meal, and then have your two smaller meals equal that.

I thought the 2 smaller ones can't equal the main one?

Quote from: Mithrandylan

I'm in blue.

Quote from: Boloki

1- Aren't fast and partial abstinence the same thing? One full meal with meat and 2 smaller meatless meals? So why are they spoken of as if they were different? They say, day of fast with partial abstinence. Isn't that redundant?

No, it isn't the same.  Fasting excludes any food not taken at meal time.  Partial abstinence simply means that you only take one meal with flesh meat.  While as far as I'm aware, there are no instances of fasting and no abstinence, there is nevertheless a distinction between the two simply because partial abstience simply means you can only take flesh meat with one meal, though you can eat as much as you'd like (without being gluttonous, of course).  And of course, full abstinence means you don't take any flesh meat at all.  But both are distinct from fasting because they speak to the quality of food, whereas fasting speaks to the quantity of it.

2- When during fast or abstinence, it says that you can only have 1 full meal and 2 smaller ones that combined do not equal the main one, does this mean that you cannot eat anything else at all, like, a cookie or chips or a banana or a little bread?

Correct.  Any food taken not with a meal breaks the fast.  Abstinence simply refers to not eating flesh meat-- though you may eat as much and as often as you please (again, without being gluttonous).

3- Does this still apply if you wake up at 5:30-6am and go to sleep until 11 or 12pm? During that whole time, you can only have 1 full meal and 2 smaller ones which combined are still smaller than the main one?

Correct.

4- I always have problems calculating the 2 smaller ones; it seems to me that they would only be a few bites since it is very easy that they can amount to the main one. I think that you could also get away with eating almost 2 plates. The "main one" would be a full plate, and then you would just take off a little bit from that, and then divide it in two. Would that be correct?

More or less, yes.  A canon law book I read put a full meal at eight ounces I think, but freely admitted that such a measurement is not definitive, and there is room to have more or less, depending on the person.

Best way to think of it is to plan your main meal, and then have your two smaller meals equal that.  Don't wing it if you don't have to.  On an ember day like today, I had breakfast (small meal) and then didn't eat again until dinner (main meal) and then if I need it, I'll have a third meal, which is actually more of a 'snack' (though it is not) and it is simply used as some basic sustenance to make it through the rest of the night.

Got it. Thanks.

The only thing you confused me with was this: Best way to think of it is to plan your main meal, and then have your two smaller meals equal that.

I thought the 2 smaller ones can't equal the main one?

Boloki, I was under the impression that they may equal the larger meal, but I may be wrong about that-- I don't normally worry about it because my situation normally has me only having one main meal and a smaller meal on days of fasting, but you may be correct that they must not equal the larger.  I will check on that and reply later, probably tomorrow.

ETA: When I wrote 'plan the two smaller meals to equal the larger' I meant to equal or be smaller, not that you were compelled to have them equal the larger.  And again, I will check on that later.

Oh yeah and one last thing: if for whatever reason you make it to 12am, are you then allowed to break the fast or abstinence, provided the next day is free of course?

I've always thought, you should, otherwise you deny the fact that a day has 24 hours.

Yes, of course.  A 'day' in canonical terms is midnight to midnight.  If you'd like to stay up on a day of fast until 11:59 PM and then feast when it turns to 12:00, that's fine.

As to the two smaller meals equaling or being smaller to the principal meal, I'm still not sure.  There is nothing as rigid in the source I'm using, it simply specifies that fasting entails taking one principal meal, breakfast, and a collation.  It says ideally that breakfast would be two ounces, or whatever is necessary to fulfill one's civic duty, and the collation norm is eight ounces, or the fourth of one part of a full meal.  There is no stipulation as to the quantity of food for the principal meal.  

What about when a day is both Fast and Abstinence, like tomorrow? Is tomorrow just a meatless Fast?

Just want to add that I've read that the drinking of whole milk is considered food.

I was drinking raw, whole milk with meals on these days but stopped because of what I read. I have to get out the door here, otherwise I'd look it up. I probably read it in Davis' Moral and Pastoral Theology.