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Author Topic: questions about attending weddings funerals  (Read 2841 times)

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Offline curiouscatholic23

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questions about attending weddings funerals
« on: October 04, 2011, 02:07:17 PM »
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  • I am a sede. I have to mention this because unlike the SSPX, I do not recognize the new form of cannon law that was written by antipope John Paul II in 1983.

    With that said, basically all my former friends/family are either novus ordo, heretics, or agnostics. I still maintain relations with these people, enjoying their company within limits with also the hopes of one day helping them discover the one true faith. Is it apostasy to hang out with heretical protestant friends and watch a football game while drinking a beer, while occasionally bringing up things like Vatican II, latin mass, Fatima, etc....?

    I am in my early 20s and some of my "friends" who I have know since my public school days will be getting married.

    Before Vatican II, what were the laws on the books regarding catholics attending non-catholic weddings and funerals? Protestant weddings? Civil weddings? Novus Ordo weddings?

    I also have a protestant friend who wants me to be godfather to his first child. Is this acceptable?

    I have a cousin who is getting married next year. Both he and his fiance were baptized NO. they have been living together for quite some time. Now they want a civil wedding. Am I required by the 1917 cannon law not to go?

    I once emailed MHFM and either Br. Peter or Michael Dimond told me I must never attend a NO service. Not for any reason, including my grandmother's funeral. Do you people agree with this? Even though the NO is a masonic abomination, I would still like to go to my grandmothers funeral just out of respect for her. For the record both my grandmothers are still living, I am just speaking in the hypothetical. I will try to re-introduce them to tradition, but I am afraid I may fail because they are so attached to the bogus ordo saturday night mass in their jeans. They've been doing it for decades and I'm afraid it might be too late. Both my grandfathers were also serious bogus ordo catholics, but for some reason they got cremated. I am trying to convince my grandmothers that cremation is never acceptable.


    Help from people who have gone through this???


    Offline s2srea

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    questions about attending weddings funerals
    « Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 02:24:05 PM »
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  • So you've been able to go through the theological studies, prayer and more studies to understand that you're a sedevecantist, but you don't know the rules for Catholics engaging in non-Catholic religious activities?

     :confused1:

    Sorry to derail... but that always confuses me....


    Offline LordPhan

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    questions about attending weddings funerals
    « Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 02:25:11 PM »
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  • Quote
    I am a sede. I have to mention this because unlike the SSPX, I do not recognize the new form of cannon law that was written by antipope John Paul II in 1983.


    I am with SSPX

    Quote
    With that said, basically all my former friends/family are either novus ordo, heretics, or agnostics. I still maintain relations with these people, enjoying their company within limits with also the hopes of one day helping them discover the one true faith. Is it apostasy to hang out with heretical protestant friends and watch a football game while drinking a beer, while occasionally bringing up things like Vatican II, latin mass, Fatima, etc....?


    You can maintain relations so long as you are converting them or they are open to it. If they are obstinate what is the purpose? More then likely they will infect you.

    Quote
    Before Vatican II, what were the laws on the books regarding catholics attending non-catholic weddings and funerals? Protestant weddings? Civil weddings? Novus Ordo weddings?


    You can go to the  Funeral of a family member, but you may not participate in any way.


    Quote
    I also have a protestant friend who wants me to be godfather to his first child. Is this acceptable?


    I highly doubt this, since you as Godfather are obligated to form the child in the Catholic Faith.

    Quote
    I once emailed MHFM and either Br. Peter or Michael Dimond told me I must never attend a NO service. Not for any reason, including my grandmother's funeral. Do you people agree with this? Even though the NO is a masonic abomination, I would still like to go to my grandmothers funeral just out of respect for her. For the record both my grandmothers are still living, I am just speaking in the hypothetical. I will try to re-introduce them to tradition, but I am afraid I may fail because they are so attached to the bogus ordo saturday night mass in their jeans. They've been doing it for decades and I'm afraid it might be too late. Both my grandfathers were also serious bogus ordo catholics, but for some reason they got cremated. I am trying to convince my grandmothers that cremation is never acceptable.



    I would advise you to stop Listening to the Dimonds, they wouldn't know Catholic Theology or Law if it hit them in the head.

    You can go to your Grandmothers funeral, but you cannot participate in any way.

    I will post an article on this.

    Offline LordPhan

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    questions about attending weddings funerals
    « Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 02:25:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    So you've been able to go through the theological studies, prayer and more studies to understand that you're a sedevecantist, but you don't know the rules for Catholics engaging in non-Catholic religious activities?

     :confused1:

    Sorry to derail... but that always confuses me....


    They become Sede's because it is simplified for them, reality is not so simple, nor is theology or canon law.

    Offline LordPhan

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    questions about attending weddings funerals
    « Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 02:27:45 PM »
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  • Quote
    Is one permitted to maintain social contact with apostate family members?
    The question here concerns what is called by the theologians communication with heretics. Here it concerns profane or civil communication, namely that concerning commerce, business and friendly conversation, as distinct from communication in sacred things pertaining to the worship of God, and prayer. Active participation of this latter kind is forbidden by the traditional law and practice of the Church (canon 1258, §1 of the 1917 Code), but encouraged by the post-Conciliar Church in the name of ecuмenism (canon 844 of the 1983 Code).

    There was a time in the history of the Church when the Church’s law forbade communication in civil or friendly matters with those who were or who had become notorious heretics, and who apostatized. However, the sad conditions of modern society, in which we must constantly live alongside heretics and apostates, forced the Church to mitigate this law. Consequently the injunction to avoid civil communication with heretics and apostates only applied to the special class of excommunicated persons classified as having to be avoided in the 1917 Code. Furthermore, even then such civil communication was permissible for any reasonable cause, such as necessary commerce (canon 2267). In addition, the same canon explains that the forbidding of civil communication does not apply to a person’s spouse, parents, children, servants, or subjects, since manifestly such communication cannot be avoided.

    Nevertheless, although the Church’s law does not bind us to avoid all personal and friendly contact with apostates, and especially not with relatives, such contact is frequently highly dangerous to the faith of Catholics, bringing with it the possibility of indifferentism. For, in practice, such contact presumes that the Faith is not discussed, and the beliefs or not of the apostate person are accepted as such. For this acceptation is the basis of ordinary friendly, social contact. In such instances contact even with relatives would be opposed to the natural law, and even to the divine law. St. Paul is, indeed, very explicit: "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid" (Tit. 3:10). Likewise St. John, the apostle of charity: "If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you. For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works" (II Jn. 10, 11).

    However, this being said, it cannot be denied that there is no true Catholic who is not zealous for the conversion of heretical or apostate relatives to the true Faith, and that if there were no friendly contact or conversation, there would be no human possibility of initiating that conversion. It will consequently depend upon the virtue of prudence to balance the possible advantage of maintaining some contact with the grave danger of indifferentism of keeping up that contact, either affecting one’s own soul, or giving one’s relatives the impression that religion does not matter, or finally inducing other persons or relatives into indifferentism by the example of such contact.

    The prudent man will generally resolve this question by using the opportunity of a social contact to speak openly and frankly about the true religion and Faith, in an attempt to encourage the apostate or heretical relative to show interest in it. In so doing, he will faithfully fulfill Our Lord’s command: "Everyone therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven" (Mt. 10:32). If this effort brings a positive response, then he will maintain the contact, speaking regularly about the Faith. If it does not, but rather seems futile, then he will avoid all friendship, but simply limit his contact to social necessities, thus fulfilling the recommendation of St. Paul: "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?…Wherefore, go out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (II Cor. 6:14-17). Indeed, for what do we have in common with those who refuse to believe in supernatural realities, in God, His grace, the teachings of the Church, and the Cross, our only hope.

    This being said, the prudent man will always be ready to practice charity towards his relatives, even apostate, and in case of need he will always be available to provide physical help or emotional support, even when the spiritual is rejected, as St. Paul teaches: "Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good" (Rom. 12:21).  [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]


    Offline LordPhan

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    questions about attending weddings funerals
    « Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 02:29:21 PM »
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    Should I refuse to speak to my daughter, who is living in sin with her boyfriend?

    Certainly it is your duty to avoid anything that would give the impression of supporting or helping her to commit this sin, whether you do it materially or emotionally, directly or indirectly. Any such encouragement is certainly matter for confession. It is furthermore your grave duty to inform her that she knows that you abhor such behavior, so offensive to God and scandalous to other souls, including siblings. You cannot allow the two of them to come to family gatherings, as if they were married. This would be to approve the scandalous situation. Alas, this is frequently not enough to force them to separate.

    However, I am concerned that the approach of cutting off all conversation and contact until she ceases living in sin is not psychological and will not be the right approach to touch her soul. The best that could come from it would be that it would force her to get married. The worst is that it could turn her away from our holy religion. However, neither of these is what you desire. I have seen many situations like this. The young people involved are always blinded by passion and short sighted. They ought not to be forced or coerced into marriage. It does not work to approach the matter head-on and in a frontal manner. Such an approach is often counter-productive. It makes the sinner feel personally attacked and threatened.

    My approach to this situation would be quite different. Firstly, I believe that it is very important that you maintain contact, and that you speak frequently to your daughter, and express your concern and affection for her. Secondly, there is no point belaboring the point of her sin, and pushing her further into her obstinacy, or of getting married without due preparation. Thirdly, you must take a positive tack. Speak about your own spiritual life, the graces that you receive and how God has taught you to carry your cross.

    Speak about love, and how the roses and thorns are inseparable in your own marriage. Encourage her positively in the practice of virtue. Remember that all virtues are connected together, and by encouraging her to practice charity, meekness, humility, thoughtfulness, etc., you are effectively encouraging her to practice chastity without saying so. Encourage her especially in her daily prayers. Talk about spiritual reading, and give her the very correct impression that she also can pray, even though she is not in the state of grace. Encourage her to recite her Rosary every day, or the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary to know the will of God (but be very careful not to tell her what the will of God is, she has to figure this out for herself). Speak to her about Mass, and the spiritual high points in the year, and you can expect that when she starts reciting her Rosary every day, she will go to Mass.

    All of these things will have a much more profound effect upon her soul than any reproach or harsh words. If you can get her to pray, you will not have to say anything about the horror and scandal of living in sin. She will see it for herself. This must be your goal. I have often given instructions to a couple living in sin (e.g., one would like to convert). I do not wait until they separate to start the classes. I simply teach them the catechism. If they follow through with their prayers, it does not take more than three months for them to ask what they need to do about their living situation.  [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

    Offline Augstine Baker

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    « Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 02:38:35 PM »
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  • I'm sure someone's going to tell you that you're sinning by going.

    Offline clare

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    « Reply #7 on: October 04, 2011, 03:16:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    Is it apostasy to hang out with heretical protestant friends and watch a football game while drinking a beer, while occasionally bringing up things like Vatican II, latin mass, Fatima, etc....?  

    No.

    Even before Vatican II Catholics had non-Catholic friends. Sometimes they even married them!

    Quote
    Before Vatican II, what were the laws on the books regarding catholics attending non-catholic weddings and funerals? Protestant weddings? Civil weddings? Novus Ordo weddings?

    There will be no pre-Vatican II guidance on attending Novus Ordo weddings.

    And, you can't attend weddings of Catholics outside of the Church. But you can attend weddings of non-Catholics outside the Church.

    So, if you regard NO Catholics as non-Catholics, and the NO outside the Church, then I would guess you can attend the wedding of NO Catholics within the NO Church!

    But, this gets confusing, because that ought to mean you could attend the wedding of an NO Catholic in a Protestant church or a registry office.

    But, as they are Catholics (whether you believe it or not), they may not marry Protestant or civil style.

    So....  

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    I also have a protestant friend who wants me to be godfather to his first child. Is this acceptable?

    No.

    Quote
    I have a cousin who is getting married next year. Both he and his fiance were baptized NO. they have been living together for quite some time. Now they want a civil wedding. Am I required by the 1917 cannon law not to go?

    I would imagine so, and I would imagine the new code would agree.

    Quote
    I once emailed MHFM and either Br. Peter or Michael Dimond told me I must never attend a NO service. Not for any reason, including my grandmother's funeral. Do you people agree with this?

    No.

    Quote
    Even though the NO is a masonic abomination, I would still like to go to my grandmothers funeral just out of respect for her.

    You can go to Protestant funerals. You can go to NO funerals.

    Quote
    I am trying to convince my grandmothers that cremation is never acceptable.

    Occasionally it can be acceptable. Like if there's a disease.

    Or for heretics (who aren't necessarily dead at the time)!!  :heretic:


    Offline Lighthouse

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    questions about attending weddings funerals
    « Reply #8 on: October 04, 2011, 03:40:41 PM »
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  • From Father Jone's Moral Theology:


    (...with some elisions. You should always consult a competent moral advisor when possible. I am not such, and I do not play one on this forum).


    124, under the title of Association with Non-Catholics:

    1. Association with non-Catholics in civil affairs is allowed as long as this does not constitute a danger to one's faith.

    <snip: follows some details about when such civil associations must be  avoided>

    125.--Participation in religious worship takes place when Catholics take part in non-Catholic services or permit non_Catholics to participate in Catholics services.
    1. Participation of Catholics in non-Catholic services may mean that Catholics actually take part in the religious worship of non-Catholics or that they are only passively present at their sacred services.

      a) Active participation in non-Catholic services is entirely forbidden. (C. 1258).

    The natural law forbids participation in services that are heretical.  If the service is one that heretics have in common with us, even though no scandal comes from such participation, it is at least forbidden by Church Law.

    Therefore, it is forbidden to ask a heretic to baptize, to be a sponsor for a non-Catholic (even by proxy. In general it is unlawful to be best man or bridesmaid at a marriage performed by a non-Catholic minister, to receive Holy Communion from the hands of a schismatic. Some authors hold that in America it is only it is considered only a sign of friendship to be selected as best man...


    It is forbidden to sing, play the organ or other instruments in the religious services of non-Catholics. --But it is not forbidden to pray or sing privately with heretics if the prayers or songs are not heretical and no scandal is given.

    Whoever acts contrary to the prescriptions of C. 1258 and takes part in non-Catholic services is suspected of heresy. [Hmmm.]

    126. b Passive attendance at non-Catholic services  is allowed for a good reason e.g., due to one's position or for politeness, provided the danger of perversion and scandal is precluded (C. 1258)

    (Emphases are from the original).


    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    « Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 03:49:44 PM »
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  • Well I guess this issue is how I view the Novus Ordo "catholics". I dont consider them catholics, but I also dont put them on the same level as protestants because they honestly believe in their heart that they are in "The catholic church" even though they are not. And they honestly believe Benedict XVI is the pope, even though he is not.

    So I really dont know what to do in the case of my cousin and his fiance who were baptized NO and have decided on a civil wedding. Were they even "catholic" to begin with? My gut tells me no, they were never catholic to begin with becaue they were never taught the true faith to begin with. Yet, if I admit they are not catholic for being brought up in the novus ordo, then by logic I also have to believe my grandparents excommunicated themselves and left the mystical body of christ when they started going NO. This makes me very uncomftorable because my grandparents just thought they were doing whats right and following the church. They didn't have the internet. They didn't know about the traditional movement. Growing up in the 1930s and 40s they were taught never to question the church. This is something I have to pray about.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 03:56:08 PM »
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  • You can attend NO and non-Catholic weddings and funerals, but you may not participate in them. I have wondered, though, if someone had let's say a brother or sister and their wedding was NO or Protestant. Would it be still be a sin to participate in?

    I stopped attending NO Baptisms a while ago. I'll attend an NO wedding if I have to (fortunetly I haven't had to latley) but I wouldn't be crazy about it.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.