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Offline cassini

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Re: Question for Geocentrists
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2019, 05:21:21 AM »
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  • .
    Here is the video which debunks the Tycho Brahe model of Geocentrism.
    IT ALSO DEBUNKS the model of ROBERT SUNGENIS.
    .
    Yes, I know it's the most stupid video that you will ever see, so you don't
    have to say that.  Just skip that statement and proceed with your scientific
    explanation about how the video is wrong.

    Just in case any others watch this video and think it proves anything, I watched it and heard the 'MASS of stars' used to prove something. Masss of course is Neweton's theory, yes theory, not law. I continued to hear about  'the Laws of physics.' Now whose 'laws' did it follow? Newton's, la Sage's, Descartes's or Einstein's? Anyone who uses theories to prove or disprove anything is 'B....X.'

    Finally, and I know I am saying this too often, nobody claims to prove geocentrism or heliocentrism, for the order of the universe cannot be proved by man. We take God's word that what we see every day, every year is a fact.

    Let me end with St Augustine on Genesis and his geocentrism:

    ‘It not infrequently happens that something about the Earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon. . . . and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, and greatly to be avoided, that he should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters,[heliocentrism]  and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are” (St. Augustine, The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Ch. 19).

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #46 on: August 08, 2019, 08:48:11 AM »
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  • :facepalm:
    .
    That pretty much sums up your arguments against Heliocentrism.
    .
    I keep hoping that you will find one argument, but you never do.
    99% of your responses are calling me names, acting shocked,
    judging my internal spiritual state, etc.
    .
    The other 1% are LIES about the Catholic Faith and the Bible.
    .
    You seem to think that because you have 17,000 replies at CathInfo
    that makes you the god of CathInfo.
    .
    :facepalm: :facepalm:


    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #47 on: August 08, 2019, 09:17:24 AM »
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  • Just in case any others watch this video and think it proves anything, I watched it [and I cannot understnad it] and heard the 'MASS of stars' used to prove something. Mass of course is Neweton's theory, yes theory, not law [because
    it completely blows away Geocentrism]
    . I continued to hear about  'the Laws of physics.' Now whose 'laws' did it follow? Newton's, la Sage's, Descartes's or Einstein's? Anyone who uses theories [i.e. math that I cannot understand] to prove or disprove anything is 'B....X. [Beyond my intellectual level]'

    Finally, and I know I am saying this too often, nobody [i.e. none of the Geocentrists] claims to prove geocentrism or heliocentrism [because they cannot do math], for the order of the universe cannot be proved by man [who believe in
    Geocentrism]
    . We take God's word that what we see every day, every year is a fact [i.e. the rotation of the Earth].
    .
    That's what I thought.  You did not understand the video.
    .
    You cannot understand the mathematics of astronomy,
    so you call them theories. 
    .
    Then you say it's all theory, Geocentrism and Heliocentrism.
    Nobody can prove anything. 
    .
    You mean Cassini cannot prove anything. 
    .
    Therefore we have to rely on the Church Fathers whose
    judgments about astronomy were unanimous, blah, blah, blah.
    .
    And Pope Pius VII was a heretic, says Dr Cassini (doctor of the
    Church, higher than the Pope).
    .
    Dr Cassini says 2+2 = 4 is a theory and cannot be proven,
    especially cannot be proven by Cassini. 
    .
    I'm still waiting for you to find something wrong with the video,
    something scientifically wrong or even mathematically wrong.
    .
    Of course, since Dr Cassini cannot do mathematics, then nobody
    can do it and it's all theory.
    .
    But the Church Fathers define Church doctrines by their VOTE.
    Maybe they should have voted on cell phones and made that a
    Church doctrine.
    .

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #48 on: August 08, 2019, 11:43:17 AM »
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  • Let me end with St Augustine on Genesis and his geocentrism:

    ‘It not infrequently happens that something about the Earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon. . . . and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, and greatly to be avoided, that he should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters,[heliocentrism]  and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are”
    (St. Augustine, The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Ch. 19).

    .
    Here is the actual quote from St Augustine. 
    .
    "It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian.
    .
    It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are.
    .
    In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.[2]"
    .
    Cassini, you lied again.  You called it Augustine's Geocentrism and inserted the word [Heliocentrism] into the quote.
    .
    The quote could apply equally to Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.
    .
    Here is another quote from Pope Leo XIII ...
    .
    "The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect"
    (Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus §19)
    .
    Here is another quote from Robert Sungenis ...
    .
    "It is the divine origin of a particular doctrine that makes the doctrine a requirement of belief for salvation, not the majority or common opinion of the Fathers ..."
    (Bob Sungenis, The Epistles of Romans and James, p. 440).
    .


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #49 on: August 08, 2019, 01:12:57 PM »
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  • Nonbelievers:
    'This because their intellects have never been presented with truth itself as a concept, something the mind can apprehend. Their field of vision has been so narrowed to just the sensible here-and-now world that if they can’t touch it, see it, taste it or hear it, they don’t believe.' ---Voris.

    And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.” --- (2 Thes 10)

    But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman: But have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world. With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things. Or if they admired their power and their effects, let them understand by them, that he that made them, is mightier than they: For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby.’ (Wisdom 13)

    'But the fool on the hill
     Sees the sun going down
     And the eyes in his head
     See the world spinning 'round.’
    ---Beatles song.

    Put on the armour of God that you may be able to stand up to the wiles of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the Principalities and Powers, against the spiritual forces of wickedness on high.’ --- St Paul (Eph, ch.6, 10-12.)

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against the ungodliness and wickedness of those men who in wickedness hold back the truth of God, seeing that what may be known about God is manifest to them. For God has manifested it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen – His everlasting power also and divinity - being understood through the things that are made. And so they are without excuse, seeing that, although they knew God they did not glorify Him as God or give him thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds have been darkened. For while professing to be wise, they have become fools, and they have changed the glory of the incorruptible God for an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.’ --- St Paul’s Letter to the Romans, (Ch.1:18-23)


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #50 on: August 08, 2019, 02:16:53 PM »
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  • Here is the actual quote from St Augustine.  
    .
    "It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian.
    .
    It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are.
    .
    In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.[2]"
    .
    Cassini, you lied again.  You called it Augustine's Geocentrism and inserted the word [Heliocentrism] into the quote.
    .
    The quote could apply equally to Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.
    .
    Here is another quote from Pope Leo XIII ...
    .
    "The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect"
    (Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus §19)
    .
    Here is another quote from Robert Sungenis ...
    .
    "It is the divine origin of a particular doctrine that makes the doctrine a requirement of belief for salvation, not the majority or common opinion of the Fathers ..."
    (Bob Sungenis, The Epistles of Romans and James, p. 440).

    Now that you are trying to pervert the writings of St Augustine, trying to use them to support heresy, I cannot let it go as you may lead others into that anti-Catholic mindset you possess.
    St Augustine lived from 354 to 430 AD. He is one of the FATHERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. It is know, and was made a dogma at the Council of Trent that when ALL the Fathers agree on a matter of faith, and the geocentric meaning of Scripture is a matter of faith, then it is considered a truth and immutable, irreformable in virtue of the fact that this belief has been constantly preserved and held by tradition since the Apostles. In 1616 Pope Paul V decreed and defined a fixed sun solar system interpretation of Scripture was formal heresy because all the Fathers held it as revealing Geocentrism. Now one of those FATHERS referred to by Pope Paul V was St Augustine.

    But along came the heretics and one of their stupid ploys was to try to use St Augustine's words above to support the heresy. Pope John Paul II even tried it. Here they say was the geocentrist St Augustine actually warning the flock not to propose a 'disgraceful and ruinous' geocentric meaning to Scripture. Now you know the perversions those heretics will go to in order to reinterpret Scripture and prevent it from opposing their heliocentrism.

    Now Mr Apollo doesn't stop at that. It is obvious he doesn't understand that when one inserts a [ ] into a quote, it is not doing so to make it seem Augustine said it, but as an example by an outsider of one of those 'matters' Augustine had to be referring to from his fight against the Pythagoreans. In his time the fourth century, the Fathers and Church theologians were at war with the Pythagoreans and all their heresies like heliocentrism, other worlds, aliens, etc. 1200 years later one of those same Pythagorean heresies had shown itself again and the Church once again condemned it but this time under the auspices of the Fathers of which Augustine was one of them. In the 1616 decree heliocentrism was described as a Pythagorean heresy.

    As for Pope Leo XIII's quote from his Providentissimus deus, well it never mentions Galileo or heliocentrism or geocentrism. It simply tells the truth, that not every opinion of each of the Fathers is valid. 'Each of the Fathers is not ALL of the Fathers. Not one Father read Scripture as revealing anything other than a one Earth geocentric universe.

    So Apollo, your exegesis and hermeneutics is as corrupt as you theories and assumptions telling us all the Scripture has been proven wrong.

    NOW go away please.

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #51 on: August 08, 2019, 05:42:43 PM »
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  • Now that you are trying to pervert the writings of St Augustine, trying to use them to support heresy,
    I cannot let it go as you may lead others into that anti-Catholic mindset you possess.
    .
    St Augustine lived from 354 to 430 AD. He is one of the FATHERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. It is know, and was made a dogma at the
    Council of Trent that when ALL the Fathers agree on a matter of faith, and the geocentric meaning of Scripture is a matter of faith, then it is considered a truth and immutable, irreformable in virtue of the fact that this belief has been constantly preserved and held by tradition since the Apostles. In 1616 Pope Paul V decreed and defined a fixed sun solar system interpretation of Scripture was formal heresy because all the Fathers held it as revealing Geocentrism. Now one of those FATHERS referred to by Pope Paul V was St Augustine.
    .
    You don't understand the concept of "infallible teaching of the Church".
    .
    You think that the Church Fathers can define an infallible teaching of the Church.
    They cannot.  This is a job for the pope and only the pope in a statement made
    "ex-cathedra" on a topic of FAITH AND MORALS and sends out a letter to all the
    bishops of the world stating the new doctrine.
    .
    This has never been done for Geocentrism.  You cannot find the doctrine of
    Geocentrism in any Catholic Catechism, or in any statement by the Magisterium
    of the Church. 
    .
    IF you disagree ... please show me where this is mentioned outside of the
    COUNCIL of 1633, and specified as a DOCTRINE of the CHURCH.  
    .
    You  cannot, so you keep dancing around the subject, like a clown screaming
    HERETIC at Pope Pius VII and everybody else who tries to shed some truth on
    this subject.
    .

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #52 on: August 08, 2019, 05:48:04 PM »
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  • St Augustine lived from 354 to 430 AD. He is one of the FATHERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
    .
    Since you like St Augustine so much (and I like him too), perhaps you will like this quote
    from him ...
    .
    "If what they [astronomers] say is proved by unquestionable arguments, this holy Father does not say that the astronomers are to be ordered to dissolve their proofs and declare their own conclusions to be false. Rather, he says it must be demonstrated that what is meant in the Bible ... is not contrary to their proofs."
    .
    Let me repeat that:
    .
    If what they [astronomers] say is proved by unquestionable arguments, this holy Father does not say that the astronomers
    are to be ordered to dissolve their proofs and declare their own conclusions to be false. Rather, he says it must be demonstrated
    that what is meant in the Bible ... is not contrary to their proofs.
    .
    In case you don't get it.  This is a DISCLAIMER.
    .
    No saint makes disclaimers for REAL DOCTRINES of the Church.
    .
    In other words, when the Bible says, "SHALL NOT BE MOVED", it may NOT support Geocentrism.
    .
    As Pope Leo XIII said, things like "SHALL NOT BE MOVED" are the language of the day and not meant
    to be taken literally, in our time.
    .
    Then you have Pope Pius VII, who you say is a heretic.  You are sufferings from illusions of grandeur,
    thinking you are the avenging angel of God.


    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #53 on: August 08, 2019, 06:03:47 PM »
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  • So Apollo, your exegesis and hermeneutics is as corrupt as you theories and assumptions telling us all the Scripture has been proven wrong.
    .
    I never said Scripture has been proven wrong. 
    I never said ALL Scripture has been proven wrong.
    .
    Scripture is NOT wrong, because it does NOT say anything
    about the Earth being in the center and nothing about the
    Earth rotating. 
    .
    You think, "SHALL NOT BE MOVED" means WAY more than
    the language of the day, which also pertains to mountains
    and just men.
    .

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #54 on: August 08, 2019, 06:07:52 PM »
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  • It is know, and was made a dogma at the Council of Trent ...
    .
    PLEASE show me the  Church doctrine on Geocentrism,
    as specified in a Catholic Catechism or
    a statement of the Magisterium of the Church,
    or Denzingers list of doctrines. 
    .
    All you have is a decree from 1633, that was never signed
    by a pope and never officially made a doctrine.
    .
    I'm waiting ...

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #55 on: August 08, 2019, 06:10:03 PM »
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  • Nonbelievers:
    'This because their intellects have never been presented with truth itself as a concept, something the mind can apprehend. Their field of vision has been so narrowed to just the sensible here-and-now world that if they can’t touch it, see it, taste it or hear it, they don’t believe.' ---Voris.

    And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.” --- (2 Thes 10)

    But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman: But have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world. With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things. Or if they admired their power and their effects, let them understand by them, that he that made them, is mightier than they: For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby.’ (Wisdom 13)

    'But the fool on the hill
     Sees the sun going down
     And the eyes in his head
     See the world spinning 'round.’
    ---Beatles song.

    Put on the armour of God that you may be able to stand up to the wiles of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the Principalities and Powers, against the spiritual forces of wickedness on high.’ --- St Paul (Eph, ch.6, 10-12.)

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against the ungodliness and wickedness of those men who in wickedness hold back the truth of God, seeing that what may be known about God is manifest to them. For God has manifested it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen – His everlasting power also and divinity - being understood through the things that are made. And so they are without excuse, seeing that, although they knew God they did not glorify Him as God or give him thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds have been darkened. For while professing to be wise, they have become fools, and they have changed the glory of the incorruptible God for an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.’ --- St Paul’s Letter to the Romans, (Ch.1:18-23)
    .
    THANK YOU FOR WARNING PEOPLE ABOUT LIARS LIKE YOURSELF.
    .


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #56 on: August 08, 2019, 08:38:27 PM »
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  • .
    Since you like St Augustine so much (and I like him too), perhaps you will like this quote
    from him ...
    .
    "If what they [astronomers] say is proved by unquestionable arguments, this holy Father does not say that the astronomers are to be ordered to dissolve their proofs and declare their own conclusions to be false. Rather, he says it must be demonstrated that what is meant in the Bible ... is not contrary to their proofs."
    .
    Let me repeat that:
    .
    If what they [astronomers] say is proved by unquestionable arguments, this holy Father does not say that the astronomers
    are to be ordered to dissolve their proofs and declare their own conclusions to be false. Rather, he says it must be demonstrated
    that what is meant in the Bible ... is not contrary to their proofs.
    .
    In case you don't get it.  This is a DISCLAIMER.
    .
    No saint makes disclaimers for REAL DOCTRINES of the Church.
    .
    In other words, when the Bible says, "SHALL NOT BE MOVED", it may NOT support Geocentrism.
    .
    As Pope Leo XIII said, things like "SHALL NOT BE MOVED" are the language of the day and not meant
    to be taken literally, in our time.
    .
    Then you have Pope Pius VII, who you say is a heretic.  You are sufferings from illusions of grandeur,
    thinking you are the avenging angel of God.
    Did he really call the Pope a heretic?
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #57 on: August 09, 2019, 06:36:00 AM »
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  • April 8th, 1546, Council of Trent:
    Furthermore, in order to curb imprudent clever persons, the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgement in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense that is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’ -- (Denzinger - 786)



    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #58 on: August 09, 2019, 10:10:45 AM »
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  • Did he really call the Pope a heretic?
    .
    Yes, Cassini said so. He said he knows more than Pope Pius VII.
    It reminds  me of my brother who is a Protestant.
    .

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Question for Geocentrists
    « Reply #59 on: August 09, 2019, 10:28:44 AM »
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  • April 8th, 1546, Council of Trent:
    Furthermore, in order to curb imprudent clever persons, the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgement in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense that is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’ -- (Denzinger - 786)
    .
    Cassini,
    .
    You have a great day.
    May God bless you.
    .
    I'm planning to take a long break from this "debate" (ad hominem attacks, repeated lies,
    refusal to answer my questions, refusal to accept anything later than 1633 AD, etc.)
    and do something more useful.  Perhaps I will work on improving my website (DRBO.ORG).
    .
    P.S.  Question. When you need to screw a light bulb into your light bulb socket in the
    ceiling, do you call the house movers and have them rotate the house, while you hold
    the light bulb fixed ?  
    .
    Just asking, because that's what you expect God to do with the WHOLE UNIVERSE in
    order to make the Sun "go up" and "go down" every day.
    .
    To use your own argument about Pope Leo XII, the above quote you listed does not
    say anything about Geocentrism or Heliocentrism, and that is because nothing in the
    Bible proves either Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.
    .
    Also you failed to mention the decree of 1820 by Pope Pius VII.
    .
    Also you failed to mention that all of the books of Copernicus were taken OFF the
    Index of forbidden books.
    .
    Have fun, while I take a vacation from this yelling contest.
    .

     

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