Author Topic: Question for Geocentrists (Read 2018 times)

apollo · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2019, 01:32:31 PM »

Quote

There are of course compelling reasons why the whole human race once accepted that the Earth is fixed at the centre of the cosmos and that it is the universe that rotates around us.

Yes, because they did not have good telescopes. I think you left Copernicus out of the "whole human race".

The first of course is because we live on the Earth and therefore it is the centre of the universe for mankind, it being the natural or philosophical presupposition on which the life of man rests.

This is about the Earth FEELING LIKE the center. I don't care what people feel like, regarding Geocentrism.

This is confirmed by our senses as we witness the sun and stars move around us every 24 hours.

Do you realize that if you were standing on Mars, you would see that same thing, only it would be
24 hours and 37 minutes instead of 24 hours. So, by this argument, Mars could also be the center of
the universe.

The Earth feels fixed, giving no indication of a body that moves at phenomenal speeds in any way.

The last time I was in an airplane I felt "fixed" in my seat. So this argument proves nothing. The question
was about the "center" not about rotation.

This central reality moreover, totally fulfilled and answered all the needs and questions that could be thought up by man as regards our place in the cosmos, be they philosophical or metaphysical.

"By man", except for Copernicus, of course and modern astronomers with modern telescopes. The current year is 2019, so
when you talk about the whole human race or "man", you are slightly out of date, by about 500 years.

Why does Sungenis think the Earth must be at the center?

Because God revealed it is in His books called the Scriptures in many ways and Sungenis, like the Church itself, takes the Scriptures as the Word of God and true.

Can you please find the word "center" in Scripture for me. I would like to read where it says the Earth is the "center" when
speaking about the whole universe.   Does the term "the Church" include Pope Pius VII and his decree of 1820 ? If so, you
are talking about a Church that contradicts itself.

Genesis tells us God created the Earth and around it placed the sun, moon and stars. Mary of Agreda in her Mystical City of God wrote: ‘God created the Earth conjointly with the heavens in order to call into existence hell in its centre; for, at the instant of its creation there were left in the interior of that globe spacious and wide cavities, suitable for Hell, Purgatory and Limbo.’ St Thomas Aquinas said Hell had to be the furthest place from Heaven. That happens to be the center of the Earth if the Earth is at the center of creation.

I was hoping to get a more scientific answer.

Throughout the Bible are many references to a moving sun and stars around a fixed Earth, but none of a fixed sun, stars or moving Earth. Of all such citations, none are more significant than the references to the Lord’s footstool: The heaven is my throne and the Earth a footstool for my feet. What house will you build me says the Lord, or what shall be the place of my resting." 'In the Prophets and Apostoles visions of God, the Father is always seated on His throne. This is important. God is always at rest. Nothing disturbs him. Even in the Book of revelation where violent events are taking place on Earth are foretold you will find God seated on His Throne.' (Loveark. net) The term footstool then, far from being considered as incidental to the Holy throne, is best considered as a key component of the DAIS of the Melchisedech holy throne fashioned for one who is seated (in contradistinction to movement). The Earth is God's footstool at rest. To have it fly around the sun makes the Scriptures look foolish.

I was hoping to get a more scientific answer. Now God has a foot? I hope He has a chair too.

Why is the center so important?

Because it was God's way to show the special place of mankind in this universe.

And the special place is the center ? And again ... why is the center so important ?

Man observes the Earth is at the center of the Universe

No, he does not, because he cannot go to a place where he can view the whole universe and the Earth's
place in it.   All he can witness is the rotation of the Earth.

The first dogma of Catholicism is that God can be known with certainty from the things that he made.

You mean like the order in the universe, the gravitational force which keeps all the planets orbiting
their Sun or star ?

Geocentrism was the greatest of all such observations.

Like I already said, man cannot observe the position of the Earth in the universe, because he cannot
go to a place where he can view the whole universe. When you sit at the center of a merry-go-round
in a park and you see the whole park going around you ... are you at the center of the park ?
Not necessarily.

From it St Thomas completed the Sacred Doctrine of Geocentrism.

What? Sacred Doctrine of Geocentrism? Where is that? Which Catholic catechism
book contains that?

Alas once the heliocentric lie entered the minds of mankind, including churchmen, all the above was lost and with it billions of souls ceased to believe in God.

"Ceased to believe in God"? Because the Earth is not at the center? You're kidding.
Question. Who says Heliocentrism is a LIE ?   Not the Catholic Church? See the
decree of Pope Pius VII of 1820, which says Heliocentrism cannot be condemned.

Matto · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2019, 01:49:05 PM »

Is this possible? That in the beginning the earth was originally flat and then some great saints prayed for the world to be made round and geocentric and it was done. And then some great saints prayed for it to be made heliocentric and it was done? Couldn't prayer with a little faith move the sun and the moon and the stars as it can move mountains?

cassini · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2019, 06:27:20 AM »

(2) “That the Earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered to be at least erroneous in faith.”

If Lucifer were to appoint someone to try to ridicule the above judgement of the Catholic Church, reflecting the beliefs of 1616 years of Catholic thought, prayer and art, Apollo would have served that purpose. Think of all the popes, Fathers and theologians in the history of the Catholic religion who held this position based on Scripture and the experience of their own eyes.

Under the guise of an interesting question, it is now obvious Apollo was just waiting to throw his faithless vomit and excrement at any who answered the question he set up.

In fact here we have an example of how Satan entered the minds of men to have his way. It worked up to now, but in the end the truth will out as it has on this forum in spite of the Apollos doing their best to keep others ignorant. Apollo, go to hell with your tricks and jeers.

apollo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2019, 09:20:06 AM »

Quote from: cassini on August 06, 2019, 06:27:20 AM

(2) “That the Earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered to be at least erroneous in faith.”

.
How out-of-date is this quote? It comes from an era in which people did not have good telescopes, right?
Before 1820, right?
.
Are all the popes after 1633 anti-popes. Are you a sedevacantist now?
Because, afterall, you know more than Pope Pius VII, right?
.
You would do well to take on some of the humility of the two church fathers,
St Robert Bellarmine and St Augustine, who made a disclaimer concerning
Geocentrism.
.
They both said, if anyone in the future finds evidence that Geocentrism is
wrong, then we will have to say that we misunderstood Scripture.
.
You always fail to mention that. You try to squash it, every time I bring
it up.
.
Fr Gregory Hesse said, "Pride and stupidity are twin sisters". I think that
applies here.
.
If you cannot win an argument, you can always attack the man I guess.
.
One reason I persist with attacking Geocentrism is because it's an insult
to God.
.
You Geocentrists claim that gravity cannot operate because we don't
understand it completely. But you understand God so well that you
give Him credit for moving the WHOLE UNIVERSE around the Earth in
24 hours.
.
Poor God. He did not have enough brains to create an order in the
universe, by using gravity, so He has to manually do it Himself.
.
Another reason I persist is because you are turning intelligent people
away from Catholicism, especially those people who study astronomy.
And then you have the gall to say you are upset by millions of people
who quit believing in God because of Heliocentrism.
.
I doubt you could computer the barycenter of Earth and Sun if you had
the formulla given to you.
.
Finally, I noticed that you did not answer any of my questions.
.
In the interest of humility, I don't know all that much about astronomy
and I had to go research the decree of 1633 after you mentioned it.
.
I don't really intend to diminish your replies, so much as to get you to
stop lying.
.
Saying that Geocentrism is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith is a LIE. And
saying that Pope Pius VII was a heretic makes you a sedevacantist.
.
Another reason I persist is because when I first started bringing up the
idea of Heliocentrism, I was viciously attacked with all sorts of ad hominem
attacks and stupid arguments and lies.
.
LIES about the Catholic Faith should not be allowed on CathInfo.com. I guess
the "moderators" really care more about how much money they make from the
ads, than preserving Catholic truths.
.
And the moderators have proven that they have no problem with people
calling other people bad things.
.
This is an amateur website, too bad.

Quote

If Lucifer were to appoint someone to try to ridicule the above judgement of the Catholic Church, reflecting the beliefs of 1616 years of Catholic thought, prayer and art, Apollo would have served that purpose. Think of all the popes, Fathers and theologians in the history of the Catholic religion who held this position based on Scripture and the experience of their own eyes.

Under the guise of an interesting question, it is now obvious Apollo was just waiting to throw his faithless vomit and excrement at any who answered the question he set up.

In fact here we have an example of how Satan entered the minds of men to have his way. It worked up to now, but in the end the truth will out as it has on this forum in spite of the Apollos doing their best to keep others ignorant. Apollo, go to hell with your tricks and jeers.

.
Is this your scientific argument ?

Tradman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2019, 10:21:12 AM »

How out-of-date is this quote? It comes from an era in which people did not have good telescopes, right?
Before 1820, right?

So, we measure truth by whether or not it's modern? Seems like considering the merits would work a little better.

cassini · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2019, 12:39:33 PM »

Quote from: apollo on August 06, 2019, 09:20:06 AM

.
How out-of-date is this quote? It comes from an era in which people did not have good telescopes, right?
Before 1820, right?
.
Are all the popes after 1633 anti-popes. Are you a sedevacantist now?
Because, afterall, you know more than Pope Pius VII, right?
.
You would do well to take on some of the humility of the two church fathers,
St Robert Bellarmine and St Augustine, who made a disclaimer concerning
Geocentrism.
.
They both said, if anyone in the future finds evidence that Geocentrism is
wrong, then we will have to say that we misunderstood Scripture.
.
You always fail to mention that. You try to squash it, every time I bring
it up.
.
Fr Gregory Hesse said, "Pride and stupidity are twin sisters". I think that
applies here.
.
If you cannot win an argument, you can always attack the man I guess.
.
One reason I persist with attacking Geocentrism is because it's an insult
to God.
.
You Geocentrists claim that gravity cannot operate because we don't
understand it completely. But you understand God so well that you
give Him credit for moving the WHOLE UNIVERSE around the Earth in
24 hours.
.
Poor God. He did not have enough brains to create an order in the
universe, by using gravity, so He has to manually do it Himself.
.
Another reason I persist is because you are turning intelligent people
away from Catholicism, especially those people who study astronomy.
And then you have the gall to say you are upset by millions of people
who quit believing in God because of Heliocentrism.
.
I doubt you could computer the barycenter of Earth and Sun if you had
the formulla given to you.
.
Finally, I noticed that you did not answer any of my questions.
.
In the interest of humility, I don't know all that much about astronomy
and I had to go research the decree of 1633 after you mentioned it.
.
I don't really intend to diminish your replies, so much as to get you to
stop lying.
.
Saying that Geocentrism is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith is a LIE. And
saying that Pope Pius VII was a heretic makes you a sedevacantist.
.
Another reason I persist is because when I first started bringing up the
idea of Heliocentrism, I was viciously attacked with all sorts of ad hominem
attacks and stupid arguments and lies.
.
LIES about the Catholic Faith should not be allowed on CathInfo.com. I guess
the "moderators" really care more about how much money they make from the
ads, than preserving Catholic truths.
.
And the moderators have proven that they have no problem with people
calling other people bad things.
.
This is an amateur website, too bad. .
Is this your scientific argument ?

It is PERFECTLY obvious to me Apollo you haven't a clue with regard to the subject you challenge us on.
Let me show again the Church's answer to your original thread question:

(2) “That the Earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered to be at least erroneous in faith.”

Now what in God's name has telescopes in 1820 got to do with the Church's position as ruled above by Popes Paul V and Urban VIII? How can a telescope help in determining whether the Earth is at the centre of the CREATED universe? Such nonsense to begin with makes it difficult to argue with someone who thinks telescopes can determine where the centre of the universe is or is not.

'Are all the popes after 1633 anti-popes. Are you a sedevacantist now?
Because, afterall, you know more than Pope Pius VII, right?'

No, popes defended the Church's ruling up to 1820. I am not a sedevacantist. Yes, I know more than Pope Pius VII. He was fed a pack of lies and had a loss of faith. I had that faith so saw through that pack of lies offered to me too.

'You would do well to take on some of the humility of the two church fathers,
St Robert Bellarmine and St Augustine, who made a disclaimer concerning
Geocentrism.You always fail to mention that. You try to squash it, every time I bring
it up. Fr Gregory Hesse said, "Pride and stupidity are twin sisters". I think that
applies here. If you cannot win an argument, you can always attack the man I guess. .'

I never avoided any such important questions. I attack a man's opinion and that that shows me the man. Both of the above saints were Geocentrists who accepted the Bible's revelation that the Sun orbited the Earth and that in Genesis it is obvious God created the Earth at the centre of His universe. It was Bellarmine who was the head theologian who defended geocentrism against Galileo and his pals. St Augustine never denied geocentrism. He warned against those who would try to reinterpret Scripture. In fact heliocentrists would come under St Augustine's warnings at the time, just as history recorded centuries later. I would not like to be in the shoes of those who tried to use Augustine to spread heresy if they ever meet in the after life. If you can show me where St Augustine literally disclaimed geocentrism I will shrink into the bushes in shame of my ignorance and pride in the Church's teaching.

'They both said, if anyone in the future finds evidence that Geocentrism is
wrong, then we will have to say that we misunderstood Scripture.'

In fact this is another misquote by the heliocentric apologists and minimisers. Bellarmine said "IF THERE WERE A TRUE DEMONSTRATION.... then....BUT AS FOR MYSELF I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS ANY SUCH DEMONSTRATION... ".
Bellarmine was addressing Galileo's claim to have proof in 1615, ONE YEAR BEFORE POPE PAUL V'S DECREE. It is in the present tense. He continued to say he believed there would never be proof because Solomon, gifted by God with such knowledge could not be wrong. No matter what he said it cannot overrule the 1616 decree that came a year later.
That said, you might as well say, "IF IT WAS EVER PROVED JESUS WAS BORN IN A NATURAL WAY, THE DOGMA OF VIRGIN BIRTH WOULD HAVE TO BE CHANGED. You could apply this nonsense to every such dogma of the Catholic faith.

'You Geocentrists claim that gravity cannot operate because we don't
understand it completely. But you understand God so well that you
give Him credit for moving the WHOLE UNIVERSE around the Earth in
24 hours. Poor God. He did not have enough brains to create an order in the
universe, by using gravity, so He has to manually do it Himself.
Another reason I persist is because you are turning intelligent people
away from Catholicism, especially those people who study astronomy.
And then you have the gall to say you are upset by millions of people
who quit believing in God because of Heliocentrism.'

I was wondering when you would get back to your naturalist mindset Apollo. I can give you four theories for gravity; Newton's, La Sage's, Descartes's and Einstein's. Which one is yours? But then we come to the blasphemy, setting limits on God's Omnipotence. If it doesn't live up to Apollo's reasoning, then not even God can arrange these things. He would disagree with Aquinas and all those who believed God uses his angels to keep the stars moving. It is a long time since Urban VIII told Galileo not to try to limit God to his level of causes.
As for me turning intelligent people away from Catholicism, well I ask here have I done this to anyone reading CIF, or maybe Apollo knows some. as for heliocentrism turning people away from Catholicism, well history shows us millions were.

'I don't really intend to diminish your replies, so much as to get you to
stop lying. Saying that Geocentrism is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith is a LIE. And
saying that Pope Pius VII was a heretic makes you a sedevacantist. .
Another reason I persist is because when I first started bringing up the
idea of Heliocentrism, I was viciously attacked with all sorts of ad hominem
attacks and stupid arguments and lies. .
LIES about the Catholic Faith should not be allowed on CathInfo.com. I guess
the "moderators" really care more about how much money they make from the
ads, than preserving Catholic truths.'

If I am lying, then so too did Pope Paul V and Pope Urban VIII lie when they held the Catholic world to avoid the heresy of heliocentrism and if they did hold it they were excommunicated. This 'lie' was upheld by the Church from 1616, and believe it or not it still does.

As for Pope Pius VII's heresy, well that was MATERIAL HERESY, based on false information given to him by head of the Holy Office at ther time, Material heresy is not considered real heresy by the Church because it is not deliberate. There is no PUNISHMENT, NO SEDEVACANTISM with material heresy. Pope Piux VII upheld the 1616 decree, never abrogated it or touched it. He was told by Olivieri the modern heliocentrism was not the heretical heliocentrism so THAT HELIOCENTRISM could be read in books on cosmology. Pius VII and Gregory XV allowed such book to be read. Paul VI got rid of the Index but every heresy in them are still heresies.

Finally you accuse Catholic Info Forum of allowing lies, suggesting they run this forum to make money. I can tell you Apollo, it is the only Catholic forum that allowed the TRUTH of the Galileo case to be discussed. But like all things Catholic, you need the grace of God to see the truth. Alas Apollo you have not received that. Maybe as little prayer for you will not go astray.

apollo · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2019, 01:52:54 PM »

Quote from: Tradman on August 06, 2019, 10:21:12 AM

How out-of-date is this quote? It comes from an era in which people did not have good telescopes, right?
Before 1820, right?

So, we measure truth by whether or not it's modern? Seems like considering the merits would work a little better.

.
You might want to get up to date on at least one argument against Geocentrism, which
has been observed with modern telescopes. The SEASONS. Geocentrism cannot explain
the seasons, unless you think the WHOLE UNIVERSE moving up and down during the year
is a good explanation. It's not. It's totally absurd.
.
After you get done with that, explain why Venus is never seen more than 45 degrees from
the Sun (if it is circling the Earth).
.
After that, there are about 20 other reasons why Geocentrism is totally absurd.
But I doubt you can understand any of the arguments.

apollo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2019, 02:07:56 PM »

Quote from: cassini on August 06, 2019, 12:39:33 PM

It is PERFECTLY obvious to me Apollo you haven't a clue with regard to the subject you challenge us on.

.
Then prove me wrong. I'm still waiting. I've heard all the lies already. You keep repeating them.
You refuse to deal with my arguments. You just go blah, blah, blah, lie after lie after lie.
.
I think anybody with half a brain can see who is winning the debate. If they cannot figure it out by now,
then I cannot help them.
.
I have learned over the years that CathInfo.com is full of arrogant know-it-alls.
I don't have much use for them in my life. Afterall, it's just an amateur blog.
Anybody can say anything and nobody suffers any consequences for telling lies.
.
I don't need to respond to your latest LIES, because I already have.
.
You are like a broken record that just keeps on repeating the same thing over
and over. You never prove me wrong, you just lie, lie, and lie some more.
.
Why? Because you don't have the brains to understand the Heliocentric
arguments.

roscoe · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2019, 02:12:48 PM »

E & S are Both in 2 types of motion-- revolutionary & rotational. Therefore neither Helio nor Geo Centrism can be correct. :cheers:

apollo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2019, 02:16:15 PM »

Quote from: roscoe on August 06, 2019, 02:12:48 PM

E & S are Both in 2 types of motion-- revolutionary & rotational. Therefore neither Helio nor Geo Centrism can be correct. :cheers:

.
That depends on how you define Helio and any Helio makes
a lot more sense than any Geo.

roscoe · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2019, 03:04:59 PM »

My apologies as I do not know that the motion of S is revolutionary but I do know that it is lateral as well as rotational. MO is that there is No physical center of U

cassini · « **Reply #26 on:** August 06, 2019, 03:31:21 PM »

Quote from: apollo on August 06, 2019, 02:07:56 PM

.
Then prove me wrong. I'm still waiting. I've heard all the lies already. You keep repeating them.
You refuse to deal with my arguments. You just go blah, blah, blah, lie after lie after lie.
.
I think anybody with half a brain can see who is winning the debate. If they cannot figure it out by now,
then I cannot help them.
.
I have learned over the years that CathInfo.com is full of arrogant know-it-alls.
I don't have much use for them in my life. Afterall, it's just an amateur blog.
Anybody can say anything and nobody suffers any consequences for telling lies.
.
I don't need to respond to your latest LIES, because I already have.
.
You are like a broken record that just keeps on repeating the same thing over
and over. You never prove me wrong, you just lie, lie, and lie some more.
.
Why? Because you don't have the brains to understand the Heliocentric
arguments.

I thought I answered every question you put to me in my last post. If the above is all you have to say then it is clear to me you are on drugs or something. It boils down to your belief that geocentrism is proven wrong and that heliocentrism is proven right. Well, a hundred years ago, science admitted it was neither, that science is unable to prove either. If you don't know this simple fact then you are the broken record. Geocentrism is a fact of faith defined by the Church as the word of God and that is good enough for me and don't waste your time trying to persuade us it is otherwise.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** August 06, 2019, 04:39:22 PM »

Quote from: cassini on August 06, 2019, 03:31:21 PM

I thought I answered every question you put to me in my last post. If the above is all you have to say then it is clear to me you are on drugs or something. It boils down to your belief that geocentrism is proven wrong and that heliocentrism is proven right. Well, a hundred years ago, science admitted it was neither, that science is unable to prove either. If you don't know this simple fact then you are the broken record. Geocentrism is a fact of faith defined by the Church as the word of God and that is good enough for me and don't waste your time trying to persuade us it is otherwise.

Yes, I've had this debate with the sun god before. He has some emotional need to cling to heliocentrism, despite the fact that even modern science doesn't hold it anymore.

apollo · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2019, 09:05:29 AM »

Quote from: cassini on August 06, 2019, 03:31:21 PM

1. I thought I answered every question you put to me in my last post.

2. Well, a hundred years ago, science admitted it was neither, that science is unable to prove either.

3. Geocentrism is a fact of faith defined by the Church as the word of God.

.
1. No, not even one.
.
2. Lie.
.
3. Lie.
.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2019, 09:09:36 AM »

Quote from: apollo on August 07, 2019, 09:05:29 AM

.
1. No, not even one.
.
2. Lie.
.
3. Lie.
.

#2 ... you're ignorant.

#3 ... you're calling St. Robert Bellarmine et al. "liars".

Author Topic: Question for Geocentrists (Read 2018 times)

apollo

Re: Question for Geocentrists

Matto

Re: Question for Geocentrists

cassini

Re: Question for Geocentrists

apollo

Re: Question for Geocentrists

Tradman

Re: Question for Geocentrists

cassini

Re: Question for Geocentrists

apollo

Re: Question for Geocentrists

apollo

Re: Question for Geocentrists

roscoe

Re: Question for Geocentrists

apollo

Re: Question for Geocentrists

roscoe

Re: Question for Geocentrists

cassini

Re: Question for Geocentrists

Ladislaus

Re: Question for Geocentrists

apollo

Re: Question for Geocentrists

Ladislaus

Re: Question for Geocentrists