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Author Topic: Question about Dress Codes for Males  (Read 944 times)

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Offline ca246

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Question about Dress Codes for Males
« on: March 30, 2020, 02:51:43 AM »
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  • There are some parishes, chapels, schools, and other religious institutions that have dress codes for men/boys which seem to favor nineteenth-century Anglophile Protestant fashions with no moral reasoning. At least in the United States, many say to wear a suit and tie and forbid shorts, etc. but I struggle to find justification for any such mandates in traditional Catholic teaching. Is there any good reason to discourage the use of robes or tunics, shorts or kilts? The whole logic of Fr. Ratzinger's (or Pope Benedict XVI's) Summorum Pontificuм applies here. I don't really believe people going to church in fifth-century Anatolia or twelfth-century Saxony were sinning by not wearing a "suit and tie," so why would that be wrong now? Besides priests and religious, do clerics or anyone else have the rightful authority to mandate a specific vestment, especially if the jurisdiction clerics have is extraordinary given the present crisis? If not, they are really overcompensating for indecency by "teaching for commandments" the fashions of men and perhaps even hindering and discouraging people from finding the true faith, outside of which there is no Salvation.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #1 on: March 30, 2020, 03:12:22 AM »
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  • Near where I live there is a church that had the following written in the bulletin; 

    In obedience and humility to God and charity to neighbor, please dress appropriately when attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Men should be in collared shirts (no T-shirts, graphics, etc.) and long trousers (skin tight pants are never appropriate). Ladies should be in opaque clothing, not tight-fitting, coming up to the neckline front and back, covering the shoulders and upper arms, skirts coming down below the knee, even when seated. Veiling is welcome.



    Offline poche

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #2 on: March 30, 2020, 03:14:35 AM »
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  • The Catholic prelates have the right to set the dress code for their church/chapel/institution. The Vatican has a dress code for women. If you show up at the Vatican inappropriately dressed they will not let you enter.  

    Online Nadir

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #3 on: March 30, 2020, 04:51:13 AM »
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  • Quote
     I don't really believe people going to church in fifth-century Anatolia or twelfth-century Saxony were sinning by not wearing a "suit and tie," so why would that be wrong now? 
    The 5th C Anatolian and the 12th C Saxon would have worn the very best clothing that they owned to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in order to give honour to God and men of the 21st C who want to honour our great God will do likewise.

    Personally, I believe it is possible to dress respectfully without the suit and tie, but it would never be respectful to wear shorts, t-shirts, jeans (tight or baggy) and thongs or sneakers for footwear.

    You dress UP, not down, to visit the One you love.

    Does that make sense?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #4 on: March 30, 2020, 07:58:47 AM »
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  • In general the principles are that our clothing should express our respect for the Holy Mass and should also be in conformity with the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice and our dignity as temples of the Holy Spirit ... and of course this might vary from culture to culture, and could be different for very poor regions, etc.

    Male clothing should be the best that we have ... unless there are practical reasons one can't.  So, for instance, if I work as a laborer and want to assist at a daily Mass before I go to work.  That's where the term "Sunday best" comes from.  Male clothing should be modest and dignified, respectful of the Mass.  "Best that we have" might vary around the world, as there are some people too poor to afford elegant clothing ... or even shoes; my dad told me that, as a child, he served Mass bare footed because his family could not afford shoes.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #5 on: March 30, 2020, 11:19:21 AM »
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  • Proper dress in any century is a sign of respect.
    No one would appear before a dignitary (Pope, King, wedding  etc) dressed in anything but their best.  Heck, you wouldn't even go to a job interview dressed in shorts or jeans.
    Manner of dress has been important since the time of Christ.

    "And the king went in to see the guests:  and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment."

    "And he saith to him:  Friend, how comest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?  But he was silent."
    Matthew 22:11-12
     
    Our outward appearance shows our disposition to the occasion.  Likewise our inward appearance (our state of grace) is also important when going before Our Lord, but that's for another thread.
     
    When you go to Mass you wear your best  according to your culture of dress and the time period in which you live. And if you are very poor you still wear your best rags.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline ca246

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 12:46:50 PM »
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  • Some totally miss the point; "this might vary from culture to culture" and "according to your culture of dress" is exactly the question of the post. Is there any magisterial declaration that compels men to abide by the current fashion of the region in which one goes to church?

    Nadir: "Does that make sense?" No, why is it acceptable for women but not for men to wear skirts or clothes that reach between the knees and ankles? Although that is not the point, I have seen people changing right after Mass (e.g. men putting on jeans, women putting on pants) which is a whole other issue of hypocrisy.
    Miseremini: That is a parable! On the contrary, I see diplomats and influencers wearing all sorts of clothes before dignitaries, not just suits and ties.

    Since nobody has yet cited any authoritative source, I am inclined to believe that specific mandates such as "suit and tie" are non-binding personal opinions which should not even be posted to avoid scandalizing someone who wants to go to Mass wearing their thaub, kilt, lederhosen, caftan or whatever they deem most comfortable and suitable to the weather conditions regardless of the fashion of the day.

    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #7 on: March 30, 2020, 12:54:26 PM »
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  • In normal times these specific matters were addressed by the bishops; general guidelines, from Rome.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 02:49:28 PM »
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  • S
    Miseremini: That is a parable!

     or whatever they deem most comfortable and suitable to the weather conditions regardless of the fashion of the day.
    Yes and Christ taught in parables!!!!!
    So you think your clothing should be for your own comfort and suitable to the weather.....well what about the priest?  What kind of vestments should he wear for his comfort and the weather?
    Clothing should be suited to the occasion and in North America a suit and tie are still representative of best.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline RevolveBooks

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #9 on: March 30, 2020, 03:12:32 PM »
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  • We have the authority of our Divine Teacher:

    In Christ’s parable of the Wedding Banquet (Matt 22:1-14), Christ says this:


    Quote
    But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.

    Clearly "street clothes" aren't going to cut it.  Men MUST wear their best outfit of clothing, whatever it may be, to Mass.  






    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #10 on: March 30, 2020, 03:55:33 PM »
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  • Some totally miss the point; "this might vary from culture to culture" and "according to your culture of dress" is exactly the question of the post. Is there any magisterial declaration that compels men to abide by the current fashion of the region in which one goes to church?

    Nadir: "Does that make sense?" No, why is it acceptable for women but not for men to wear skirts or clothes that reach between the knees and ankles? Although that is not the point, I have seen people changing right after Mass (e.g. men putting on jeans, women putting on pants) which is a whole other issue of hypocrisy.
    Miseremini: That is a parable! On the contrary, I see diplomats and influencers wearing all sorts of clothes before dignitaries, not just suits and ties.

    Since nobody has yet cited any authoritative source, I am inclined to believe that specific mandates such as "suit and tie" are non-binding personal opinions which should not even be posted to avoid scandalizing someone who wants to go to Mass wearing their thaub, kilt, lederhosen, caftan or whatever they deem most comfortable and suitable to the weather conditions regardless of the fashion of the day.

    There's no legislation, but common sense suggests abiding by the customary dress of a place (if possible) ... if for no other reason than not to create a distraction.  So, for instance, a Scottish man should not show up to Mass in the U.S. wearing a kilt (vs. suite and tie), since that would distract people from prayer.  Non-distraction is another principle of dress at Mass.  So, for instance, don't wear a shirt that has some kind of written message on it.  Don't wear extremely loud colors, etc.  These things cause a distraction.

    There's probably a hierarchy of prudential considerations, with modesty being #1.

    #1) Modesty
    #2) Cleanliness
    #3) Non-distraction
    #4) Dignity (the best you can muster given your means)

    I would put them in that order, but others may differ.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #11 on: March 30, 2020, 04:11:45 PM »
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  • OP,

    Just because the recommended fashions at mass are cultural does not mean they are not important.  Within a given cultural milieu, something like fashion serves as an important symbol.  This is what wearing one's "Sunday best" does-- it isn't as though God has some Platonic ideal of Sunday dress that applies to all places and peoples, but rather, He has an expectation that we express our "I'm serious about what I'm doing right now" attitude through our dress.  So, a nice suit and tie is worn to a business meeting because it shows that we are serious about what we are doing.  For the same reason it (or its cultural equivalent) is worn at mass.  It communicates that we are taking what we are doing seriously.
    .
    The same basic logic is at work when we have different clothes (and even colors), haircuts, etc. for the different sexes, especially children.  (Note that I think there might be something a bit more intrinsic about a dress or the color pink being feminine than in the case of a suit being appropriate attire for mass-- but still, I think that culture more than anything else is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to such matters).  We have cultural standards for what it means to signal one's sex, and although those standards are ultimately mutable, what they signify and symbolize is not.  Hence, they should be respected.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #12 on: March 30, 2020, 04:23:07 PM »
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  • Since nobody has yet cited any authoritative source, I am inclined to believe that specific mandates such as "suit and tie" are non-binding personal opinions which should not even be posted to avoid scandalizing someone who wants to go to Mass wearing their thaub, kilt, lederhosen, caftan or whatever they deem most comfortable and suitable to the weather conditions regardless of the fashion of the day.
    .
    No, that isn't right at all.  What you're doing here is identifying a lack of a universal and from that concluding that just about anything goes.
    .
    It is a general principle of charity that our mass attendance be non-disruptive to our fellow attendees.  For that reason, you will find clergy building things like quiet rooms for parents with especially unruly children even though there's no Church law or universal legislation that establishes the decibel point at which a child must be removed from the Church.  Ditto, you will see recommended dress codes.  
    .
    You call it a scandalous personal opinion, when in point of fact it is merely the application of common sense strategies to help provide an appropriate worship environment.  Is it appropriate, if I'm a diabetic, to, as a matter of course, inject insulin in the pew?  Is it appropriate, if I am a doctor, to have my pager on the loudest volume during mass (as opposed to vibrate)? No, it isn't.  And it doesn't have anything to do with it being sinful to take insulin or be a doctor, it has everything to do with the general principle of charity which insists that we not be disruptive to our neighbor.  
    .
    Does that mean that a diabetic can't, if emergency calls, use their insulin right there in the pew? Of course not.  Nor does it mean that men can't show up to mass after getting off a long shift and wearing jeans.  What it does mean, at the very least, is that these kinds of things remain exceptional and out of the ordinary.  You showing up to mass every Sunday in something culturally disruptive like a kilt or lederhosen is what the scandal would be.  Because such dress is culturally alien, you would be signalling your disregard for your parishioners and your own vanity.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #13 on: March 30, 2020, 05:49:22 PM »
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  • There are some parishes, chapels, schools, and other religious institutions that have dress codes for men/boys which seem to favor nineteenth-century Anglophile Protestant fashions with no moral reasoning. At least in the United States, many say to wear a suit and tie and forbid shorts, etc. but I struggle to find justification for any such mandates in traditional Catholic teaching. Is there any good reason to discourage the use of robes or tunics, shorts or kilts? The whole logic of Fr. Ratzinger's (or Pope Benedict XVI's) Summorum Pontificuм applies here. I don't really believe people going to church in fifth-century Anatolia or twelfth-century Saxony were sinning by not wearing a "suit and tie," so why would that be wrong now? Besides priests and religious, do clerics or anyone else have the rightful authority to mandate a specific vestment, especially if the jurisdiction clerics have is extraordinary given the present crisis? If not, they are really overcompensating for indecency by "teaching for commandments" the fashions of men and perhaps even hindering and discouraging people from finding the true faith, outside of which there is no Salvation.
    Just wear whatever you want, you clearly belong in the novus ordo.  You do you man 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Question about Dress Codes for Males
    « Reply #14 on: March 30, 2020, 06:15:48 PM »
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  • Do you come from the NO? I ask this completely non-prejudicially because I grew up in it, but I feel like I can relate to your issue here because of that perspective. As a kid, my idea of a Protestant "mass" was from the Simpsons where they're all very well dressed in suits and ties, slicked back hair, etc., whereas at my own Catholic Masses people were dressed far more casually(not completely casually - except for the youth - but wearing jumpers instead of suit jackets, etc.). So I associated "over-dressing" with, as you said, "Anglophile Protestantism".

    But if you look back to the time before Vatican 2, people wore suits even just going around their business in town. People valued dressing well at all times, so of course they did so for Mass. And if you look at old photos, you'll see that reflected. For example, here's an urban church in Ireland in the 1950s:



    All the men are wearing suits and ties under their coats. So clearly dressing really well for Mass isn't "Anglophile Protestantism" as we thought. Now, of course, fashions and dress styles change down the centuries. But the point is to dress well and dress respectably. And yes, fashion may be subjective, but to avoid causing scandal it is always best to follow the old adage: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". Even if dressing a certain way is the norm where you're from, if a different way is the norm in the parish you're going to, you should probably follow suit(unless the "norm" in that parish is objectively immodest, in which case that priest has a lot of work on his hands).