Author Topic: Qualities of God (Read 8339 times)

Trinity · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2010, 07:32:49 PM »

There is the Creator, then there is the created, and by dint of being created, creation enjoys existence. This is a more fascinating subject than quantum physics. And why all eternity is not enough time to enjoy the Beatific Vision.

But what about the uncreated? Such as evil?

Lybus · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2010, 10:32:49 PM »

if you think about it, things that don't exist, like unicorns, might still exist potentially in God, in that it is possible for their creation.

But evil is different as it cannot be potentially in God. So evil is even less real than a unicorn. I never thought about it this way until I pondered it after seeing your question. =

Trinity · « **Reply #17 on:** September 24, 2010, 07:00:34 AM »

You gave me a thought, Lybus, and I'm going to throw it out here even though I've not thought it through. I believe God made us creators, too----He gave us the world to fiddle with. Is it possible that we created evil?

Lybus · « **Reply #18 on:** September 24, 2010, 10:00:24 AM »

Yes, I think we are creators as well, as we reflect God.

However, I don't think we are smart enough to come up with evil on our own, at least in the original sense that God created us. In the garden, there was a complete and total absence of any danger or any evil of any kind. Peace and security is in some sense the absence of evil and the absence of danger and reasons for anxiety. So if evil, or a corruption of perfection, was never seen before, and Adam and Eve were bathing in pure security and pure peace and pure perfection, what would give themselves to think that it was possible to take away that perfection, or that peace? What would make them even think that it was possible for there to even be anything to take it away?

I think evil actually came from the angels, who are smarter than us by an extraordinary magnitude. Some of the theologians of the church are of the opinion that the reason Lucifer fell was because he wanted to be more like God. Being an extraordinarily intelligent being, he would have known that he couldn't be as strong or stronger than God.
What I think that Lucifer really wanted....was to be independent of God. Everything he had came from him, but Lucifer wanted to have something that God didn't have, so that he too may be like a god.
So the only way he could have at least have been original, or independent of God in some manner, was to "create" something that God never "Created," and that was non-existence, in other words, corruption and sin.
This is speculation on my part by the way. I think the real reason Lucifer fell was because he wanted to do something that God couldn't do, and after some pondering, he introduced something unheard of, which was the opposite of perfection....sin.
And to pass on his said legacy, he went and corrupted Adam and Eve, our first parents. Their problem was probably curiosity, since how could you know that there was an evil? What is this evil? I can distinguish it by eating this fruit? I must check this out. How could God hide this evil from me? I'll show him!
speculation, again.

Trinity · « **Reply #19 on:** September 24, 2010, 10:09:29 AM »

But excellent speculation, I think. I never thought of that. I did think of "Non servium" so we're on the same track.

You speak of "absence" and I have that very much in mind, too. But it keeps bumping into the infinity of God. Absence actually argues against His omni-everything. But, in fact, evil IS the absence of good. Just as dark is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. I think you are very right that it took satan to think this one up.

Lybus · « **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2010, 03:56:12 PM »

Yes I suppose there is some difficulty in the idea of there being an absence in the face of the almighty.

This is actually a difficult question that I'm not entirely clear myself on. One has to realize, though, that although all of existence is borrowed from God, we do have our own distinct essence that is distinct from God's, and that a corruption of material things isn't necessarily a corruption of God, as God isn't material. Materials may borrow the property of existence from God, but God himself isn't material.
As for sin, the nothingness, or absence, could be our minds geared towards an absense, or a nothingness. But that doesn't mean that God isn't everywhere in your being or outside. It's just that you are choosing to pervert the mind by having it seeking things that don't even exist, like sin. The pleasures of sin may exist, and are of the goodness of God, but the intention and the sin do not exist, so in a sense you are pushing existence away and taking instead...nothing.
Sin is a complete rejection of God...existence, that is. So to sin is simply to put your mind in a state of nothingness, and to not seek the ultimate existence.

Weird analogy. If God is sanctifying grace, and sanctifying grace is ice cream, then you're basically swimming in it. But if you choose not to eat the ice cream, that doesn't mean that it isn't there, it simply means you choose not to eat the ice cream...that you're swimming in. And if you throw up that ice cream (lose sanctifying grace), that doesn't mean that God isn't there anymore. It just means you didn't want to have the ice cream anymore, so you threw it away.

That's probably why God gets so offended when you sin, because he gave you all these gifts, and like a brat, you are arrogant enough to think you don't need any of his gifts and take instead that nothingness that Satan is so proud of.
This is a bit sketchy but that's what I have thought.

Trinity · « **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2010, 04:25:18 PM »

Must think more about what you said. We're getting into free will now, and the choice of two or more things. Fascinating!

I do want to make a few observations. The really important thing to remember is that we must learn and do what Jesus taught. In the end, I'm sure, we will concede that God is a great mystery. But we are taught that we were created to KNOW, love and serve God. For many years I was content with my juvenile concept of God. These days I have a lot of time to think, and it no longer suffices. Besides, there is nothing to compare to this subject.

Trinity · « **Reply #22 on:** September 24, 2010, 07:17:15 PM »

That does and does not work, Lybus. To give us free will God had to give us things to choose from---witness the tree in Eden.

Trinity · « **Reply #23 on:** September 25, 2010, 08:58:40 AM »

How is it that God became man without causing even a ripple in the fabric of creation? How did Life experience death without taking all of us with Him? How did Light enter into the darkness without changing it? How did Heaven descend to hell and not turn it into heaven at His entrance? How DID the infinite become finite? True God and true man? "With God ALL things are possible." So if we ever get the idea that God can't handle things, or that He needs our help.... :roll-laugh2:

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #24 on:** September 25, 2010, 09:08:17 AM »

Quote from: Lybus

Weird analogy. If God is sanctifying grace...

God is not sanctifying grace.

Lybus · « **Reply #25 on:** September 25, 2010, 04:39:06 PM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Quote from: Lybus

Weird analogy. If God is sanctifying grace...

God is not sanctifying grace.

then what is sanctifying grace?

I need to think about what you said trinity.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #26 on:** September 25, 2010, 10:13:57 PM »

Quote from: Lybus

Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Lybus

Weird analogy. If God is sanctifying grace...

God is not sanctifying grace.

then what is sanctifying grace?

This is Question 105 of the Baltimore Catechism.

Question: What is sanctifying grace?
Answer: Sanctifying grace is that grace which makes the soul holy and pleasing to God.

For more info see:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DQvMXf0aJ9MJ:www.tanbooks.com/doct/divine_grace.htm+what+is+sanctifying+grace&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:E7mXLCYGLdEJ:www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc039.htm+what+is+sanctifying+grace&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

Lybus · « **Reply #27 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:13:13 PM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Quote from: Lybus
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Lybus

Weird analogy. If God is sanctifying grace...

God is not sanctifying grace.

then what is sanctifying grace?

This is Question 105 of the Baltimore Catechism.

Question: What is sanctifying grace?
Answer: Sanctifying grace is that grace which makes the soul holy and pleasing to God.

For more info see:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DQvMXf0aJ9MJ:www.tanbooks.com/doct/divine_grace.htm+what+is+sanctifying+grace&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:E7mXLCYGLdEJ:www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc039.htm+what+is+sanctifying+grace&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

But what is grace? You used the word, "grace" in your definition.
The idea is that everything is from God. But God is perfectly simple, in that he is not made up of parts. We've already concluded in this thread that everything that has any existence of any kind must derive said existence from God, since he is existence itself.
So, if we say that Sanctifying Grace exists, then it must be God, in the sense that it comes from Him, a perfectly Simple Being in that He is not composed of parts.

It would also make sense to say that the more that God is present in someone, the more sanctifying grace is in that person.
Take the Mother of God, for instance. Jesus, the source of all grace, was inside her Virginal womb. Is that not why we say that she is the source of all grace?
But Christ Himself lived within her, and in Christ rests the entire Trinity, in the sense that God is perfectly united. Does it not make sense to say then, that God is Grace, and that Christ is Grace?
The more of Christ that the Father sees within us, the more pleasing we are to Him. Is that not a good definition of Grace, in that God is within us?

This is simply speculating on what Grace actually is, not what it does. Anything wrong I've said is open to correction, I am a student after all.

Lybus · « **Reply #28 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:21:22 PM »

Quote from: Trinity

That does and does not work, Lybus. To give us free will God had to give us things to choose from---witness the tree in Eden.

Could you please explain further? How has what I said interfere with free will?

Quote

How is it that God became man without causing even a ripple in the fabric of creation? How did Life experience death without taking all of us with Him? How did Light enter into the darkness without changing it? How did Heaven descend to hell and not turn it into heaven at His entrance? How DID the infinite become finite? True God and true man? "With God ALL things are possible." So if we ever get the idea that God can't handle things, or that He needs our help....

That has puzzled me to no end. I really don't even know if the angels themselves were able to solve that one.

Lybus · « **Reply #29 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:39:27 PM »

I believe I may have contradicted myself at a certain point. I said that we are distinct from God in that we have an essence that is separate from Him. And later I said that the essence of things is God.

I don't believe I fully understand essence. Accidentals, I know for sure we get from God. However, in order to have any essence at all, we must first exist.
But God is existence itself. Does that mean I must include that I am God, or a part of Him? That cannot be the case, since God is perfectly simple, and I am simply not perfect (no pun intended).
However, there stands no reason why God can't give something away of which he has an infinite quantity of. Nor would this giving away of something seem to interfere in the idea that God is perfectly simple. In other words, if God gave you so much existence, he doesn't subtract from some store of existence that he has. You cannot subtract from infinity, so there is no subtraction, even though he is giving existence to you.
So, in some sense, I really don't exist at all save through a compilation of God's gifts (or existence) that I somehow have control over. However, this sounds dangerously close to pantheism, which is heretical.
The Bible does say that man was created unto the Image of God, so maybe we exist separate from God, even to the extent of our very existence being separate from God. However, this seems to say that there can exist things outside of God, in that something does not necessarily need God's eternal presence to continue existing. This also, is heretical.

Is there anyone on here that can clear this up? I'm pretty stumped. Are we a compilation of God's gifts, or do we have a soul that is entirely distinct from God. Either extreme sounds like bad news.