Author Topic: Protestant rant against Catholicism (Read 1217 times)

Guest · « **on:** May 18, 2008, 12:32:46 AM »

CATHOLICISM, MOTHER OF HARLOTS

(Tired, worn-out, centuries-old, objections to Catholicism moderated)

Alex · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2008, 01:47:40 AM »

OBJECTION: Catholics worship idols and make graven images.

REFUTATION:

Exodus 25: 18-19

"And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends."

God command the making of two angelic images which are to be placed on the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark contained the holiest items known to the Hebrew people. Images and statues are not forbidden by God. It is the worship of graven images or statues that God forbids. Catholics do not worship statues, images, and paintings. Rather, the images of Jesus, Mary, and the saints are used for reflection upon those we love and honor, just as a family picture may remind us of a departed loved one.

Numbers 21:8

"And the Lord said to Moses, 'Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live."

God commands Moses to make an image (sculpture) of a serpent and mount it on a pole so that those who had been bitten by poisonous snakes could be cured. Imagine that....an image that heals people when they look at it. Just as Christ was placed on a pole for all to see, this too is an image that can heal. The statues, paintings and images in our homes and in our churches remind us of those we love.

1 Kings 7:29

"and on the panels that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. Upon the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work."

God commands the making of images...even images to be placed in the Holy Temple. If images and statues were inherently evil, why would God insist they be crafted and placed in His Holy Temple? It is the worship of images or idols that God forbids. As Catholics, we use statues and paintings to show honor and to remind us of those we love. Praying before a statue of Jesus does not imply we are worshipping the statue any more than someone kneeling and praying with a Bible in hand is worshipping the Bible.

Alex · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2008, 02:39:11 AM »

OBJECTION: Why do Catholics consider Mary so important?

REFUTATION:

Luke 1: 41:42

"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!'"[/color]

Through the power of the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth singled out Mary as God's most blessed woman. In verse 48, Mary says that all generations will call her blessed. Why don't Protestants? Even Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism) had the highest regard for Mary. It's only within the last couple of hundred years that such a disregard and disdain for Mary has emerged. This was not the attitude of the early church or of Christians before or immediately after the Protestant reformation.

OBJECTION: Why do Catholics call Mary "The Mother of God"?

REFUTATION:

Matthew 1:23

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).

Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14 which foretold of the birth of Christ. The verse states that the child's name means "God is with us". The mother of this child must be the mother of the God who is with us; Jesus. Mary is the mother of Jesus and therefore the mother of God. Catholics honor Mary in the same way Jesus honors her. Jesus kept the fourth commandment (honor your father and mother) and we as members of the Body of Christ imitate Christ in honoring His mother Mary.

Galatians 4:4

"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law.."

In Paul's writing to the Galatians, he points out that God's Son was born of a woman. Jesus, the son of the Father, is God the Son. Therfore Mary is the Mother of God (the Son). Some people misunderstand the Catholic title for Mary as "The Mother of God" thinking that we beleive that Mary gave birth to the Creator and therefore pre-existed God. This is not the Catholic Church's teaching regarding Mary.

Luke 1:43

"And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the "Mother of my Lord". "Lord" to the Jєωιѕн people and in the New Testament refers only to God. This does not imply that Mary was the mother of the Father; only of Jesus; True God and True Man. To deny that Mary is the Mother of God, is to deny that Jesus is God.

OBJECTION: Mary was not born sinless for the Bible says "all have sinned".

REFUTATION:

Genesis 3:15

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

If the woman who was going to have the seed (Jesus) who would crush the head of Satan was going to be with sin, then she would have been the seed of the devil. The verse in that case would have read, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and your seed's (woman) seed. Notice that the woman is not associated as being the seed of the devil.

Luke 1:28

"And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"

The angel Gabriel states that Mary is full of grace (kecharitomene [Gk]= perfected in grace). Some translations use "highly favored" which is a poor translation from the Greek. "Full of grace" means there's no room for sin. This verse indicates that she was very special. Lk 1:37 "For with God nothing shall be impossible". While Rm 3:23 states "all have sinned". This does not include Mary just as it does not include Christ, babies or Adam and Eve before the fall. "All" in this case (Rm 3:23) is used in a general sense.

OBJECTION: Those in heaven can't hear our prayers.

REFUTATION"

Mark 12:26-27

"And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."[/color]

The saints in heaven are more alive and aware of what's going on than we are. They're not separated from the Body of Christ but more united to it and therefore more united to us. Their love for us is now unblemished and through the love of God, they desire God's blessings for us. Asking them to pray for us is similar to asking a friend to pray for us. It doesn't take away from the mediation of Christ that is still required but contributes to our prayers to Christ on our behalf.

Revelation 5:8

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, adn with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;"[/color]

The prayers of the saints are being offered to God. What petitions would saints in heaven have to offer God if it weren't for the petitions we give them? Those in heaven have no needs. If the saints in heaven couldn't hear our prayers then this would imply that thy are separated or cutoff from the Body of Christ. In fact, they are more closely united to Christ than we are.

Alex · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2008, 03:18:46 AM »

OBJECTION: Mt 1:25 indicates that Joseph and Mary had marital relations after Jesus' birth.

REFUTATION:

Matthew 28:20

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age." [/color]

The word "until in Mt 1:25 does not imply that Mary and Joseph had relations after Christ. In the Bible, the word "until" means that some action did or did not occur up to a certain point. This verse shows that usage. Jesus of course is with us always. There are many other instances within the Bible that can show this. Some examples are 2 Sam 6:23 and Dt 34:6.

2 Samual 6:23

"And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death."[/color]

Here is another example of how the word "until" does not imply that an event took place after a particular point in time. Michal did not give birth after she died!

OBJECTION: Jesus had brothers and sisters

REFUTATION:

Matthew 27:56

"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee."[/color]

This verse shows that some of those identified as Jesus' brothers in Mt 13: 55-56, were not his brothers but most likely his cousins. There was no word in Aramaic or Hebrew for cousin or other near relatives. This occurrence is not uncommon in the Bible. Genesis 14:14 refers to Lot as Abraham's brother but we know he is Abraham's nephew from Genesis 11:27. A similar practice exists even today of referring to people in the congregation as "brother' or "sister".

John 19:25

"So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene."[/color]

With this verse and in Matthew 27:56, we see that the Blessed Virgin Mary had a sister or sister-in-law also named Mary. This Mary was the mother of James and Joseph and would be considered the cousins of Jesus. With no word for "cousin" the word "brother" was used. There is a word for cousin in the Greek but the early translators produced a transliteration rather than a strict translation from the Hebrew/Aramaic. This was done to capture the literal Hebrew meaning of the text.

John 19:26

"When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"[/color]

If Mary had in fact had other children, it would not have been appropriate for Jesus to assign her into the care of John. The alleged "other children" or "brothers" would have been responsible for taking care of their mother. This would have been especially true in the Jєωιѕн culture.

Alex · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2008, 03:35:48 AM »

Quote from: jesusissavior

If you foolishly disobey the Bible by saying "Hail Mary," then you are committing idolatry. Mary is no more special than any other godly woman. If you idolize Mary, then you are practicing false religion. If you hail Mary, you are really worshipping and praising Satan.

Hmmmmm.....Let's see now. We are disobeying the Bible, are we? Well, it's the very Bible that relates the angel Gabriel hailing Mary when he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace...". *Gasp!* The angel sent from God is worshipping Mary and commiting idolatry - shame on him!

Alex · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2008, 04:14:36 AM »

Quote from: jesusissavior

Roman Catholicism is the biggest CULT in the world! There is NOTHING in the Bible about purgatory.

OBJECTION: Purgatory is not in the Bible

REFUTATION:

Revelation 21:27

"But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."[/color]

This verse shows the logical necessity for purgatory. We are all sinners and will require God's mercy to enter heaven. Even though we may be forgiven for our sins, there is still a price to pay; "I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last copper [penny]". Luke 12:59. To stand before God, we must be perfect and pure in every way. Even the smallest "white" lie will require purification prior to our entry into heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15

"If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."[/color]

The word "purgatory" isn't in the Bible but a thrid place is described in several places. This verse is a reference to the suffering one must undergo for purification. Since the Bible doesn't name this third place, the Catholic Church gave it a name for the purpose of discussion. Similarily, the Catholic Church also gave names to the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Hypostatic Union, etc. Purgatory is the final purification for one who is already saved but not purified to enter heaven where nothing impure can enter.

Matthew 12:32

"And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."[/color]

This verse implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next age (or "world" in some translations). If someone dies and goes to hell, they will not be forgiven any of their sins. There is no sin to be forgiven in heaven since nothing unclean may enter. Therefore, the only logical explanation is a third place where sins are forgiven. The Catholic Church calls this place purgatory.

Alex · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2008, 04:31:00 AM »

Here's a couple more proving the existence of a place of purgation for the dead who are saved.

2 Maccabees 12:46

"Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[/color]

The Jєωs didn't consider it a waste of time to pray for the dead. Jesus was a Jєω and in all scripture He never condemned the practice of praying for the dead or offering atonement for them. This was a common practice and this verse shows a situation in which soldiers were found to have worn a type of good luck charm which was forbidden. They were killed in battle and thus died in a state of sin which required atonement for offenses against God. This presumes a third intermediate state where atonement can be made (Purgatory).

Matthew 12:26

"Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.'' [/color]

No can can think that God will condemn a soul to hell for every idle word; therefore there must be another place of punishment for those that die guilty of these little transgressions.

clare · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2008, 05:49:27 AM »

Ok, jesusissavior. I'm convinced! :sign-surrender:

(not)

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2008, 07:52:48 AM »

I wont permit blasphemy against the Blessed Mother on this site (note the Marian blue theme), so I have no choice but to moderate his rubbish (and I do mean rubbish -- there's nothing original there, and nothing that hasn't been proven false about a MILLION times) and ban the user.

Matthew

Author Topic: Protestant rant against Catholicism (Read 1217 times)

Guest