Author Topic: Pretending not to know something -- a sin? (Read 7071 times)

Raoul76 · « **on:** April 19, 2011, 12:29:37 AM »

Moral theology question for all you aspiring Jesuits out there.

Is pretending not to know something a sin? I'm not talking about feigned ignorance, where you do something you know is a sin while pretending you don't know it is one. I'm talking about a form of mental reservation or perhaps of lying where, for some reason or another, you act as if you're unaware of a fact that you are aware of.

For instance, let's say you ate your sister's blueberry pie that she was saving for dinner. She comes back and says "Do you know where the blueberry pie is?" To say "No" would be a lie. To not say anything would give you away. So you answer her with a question: "Someone ate your blueberry pie?" Then she says "Yes," and then you say nothing or shrug or whatever.

Is asking this question a form of lying, since you're acting as if you don't know something that you do know? Or is it an acceptable form of mental reservation, because asking the question is just asking a question.

Could it be in the same category as when you're on the phone and someone is saying something you already know and you say "Oh, really?" as if you don't know, even when you do? Or is that an excuse?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** April 19, 2011, 12:40:08 AM »

The way to approach the issue is to ask yourself how it could be sinful to pretend to be unaware of something.

If you were trying to "gaslight" someone - or pretend not to believe someone when they were asserting something you knew to be true - so as to go along with a pre-arranged but false narrative of events - you would definitely have a malicious intent.

Zenith · « **Reply #2 on:** April 19, 2011, 05:19:52 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Moral theology question for all you aspiring Jesuits out there.

Is pretending not to know something a sin? I'm not talking about feigned ignorance, where you do something you know is a sin while pretending you don't know it is one. I'm talking about a form of mental reservation or perhaps of lying where, for some reason or another, you act as if you're unaware of a fact that you are aware of.

For instance, let's say you ate your sister's blueberry pie that she was saving for dinner. She comes back and says "Do you know where the blueberry pie is?" To say "No" would be a lie. To not say anything would give you away. So you answer her with a question: "Someone ate your blueberry pie?" Then she says "Yes," and then you say nothing or shrug or whatever.

Is asking this question a form of lying, since you're acting as if you don't know something that you do know? Or is it an acceptable form of mental reservation, because asking the question is just asking a question.

Could it be in the same category as when you're on the phone and someone is saying something you already know and you say "Oh, really?" as if you don't know, even when you do? Or is that an excuse?

I think it would be a sin because of your intention. Your intention is to mislead your sister into believing that you did not eat it.

Though I don't think it is the same if we lived in a time of persection and the authorities came to your door asking if you are hiding Christians. I don't think it would be a sin to lie to them as it would be far worse to hand over half a dozen Christians to be murdered.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2011, 08:06:01 AM »

Quote from: Zenith

Quote from: Raoul76
Moral theology question for all you aspiring Jesuits out there.

Is pretending not to know something a sin? I'm not talking about feigned ignorance, where you do something you know is a sin while pretending you don't know it is one. I'm talking about a form of mental reservation or perhaps of lying where, for some reason or another, you act as if you're unaware of a fact that you are aware of.

For instance, let's say you ate your sister's blueberry pie that she was saving for dinner. She comes back and says "Do you know where the blueberry pie is?" To say "No" would be a lie. To not say anything would give you away. So you answer her with a question: "Someone ate your blueberry pie?" Then she says "Yes," and then you say nothing or shrug or whatever.

Is asking this question a form of lying, since you're acting as if you don't know something that you do know? Or is it an acceptable form of mental reservation, because asking the question is just asking a question.

Could it be in the same category as when you're on the phone and someone is saying something you already know and you say "Oh, really?" as if you don't know, even when you do? Or is that an excuse?

I think it would be a sin because of your intention. Your intention is to mislead your sister into believing that you did not eat it.

Though I don't think it is the same if we lived in a time of persection and the authorities came to your door asking if you are hiding Christians. I don't think it would be a sin to lie to them as it would be far worse to hand over half a dozen Christians to be murdered.

As a human I tend to agree with your answer and feel strongly I would do as you suggested, however I did read that even a venial sin is so abhorred by Our Lord that to tell a lie even to save the life of others is a sin.

It was in a Catholic catechism book, I believe the title was "the Ark and the Dove"

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #4 on:** April 19, 2011, 11:07:50 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Zenith
Quote from: Raoul76
Moral theology question for all you aspiring Jesuits out there.

Is pretending not to know something a sin? I'm not talking about feigned ignorance, where you do something you know is a sin while pretending you don't know it is one. I'm talking about a form of mental reservation or perhaps of lying where, for some reason or another, you act as if you're unaware of a fact that you are aware of.

For instance, let's say you ate your sister's blueberry pie that she was saving for dinner. She comes back and says "Do you know where the blueberry pie is?" To say "No" would be a lie. To not say anything would give you away. So you answer her with a question: "Someone ate your blueberry pie?" Then she says "Yes," and then you say nothing or shrug or whatever.

Is asking this question a form of lying, since you're acting as if you don't know something that you do know? Or is it an acceptable form of mental reservation, because asking the question is just asking a question.

Could it be in the same category as when you're on the phone and someone is saying something you already know and you say "Oh, really?" as if you don't know, even when you do? Or is that an excuse?

I think it would be a sin because of your intention. Your intention is to mislead your sister into believing that you did not eat it.

Though I don't think it is the same if we lived in a time of persection and the authorities came to your door asking if you are hiding Christians. I don't think it would be a sin to lie to them as it would be far worse to hand over half a dozen Christians to be murdered.

As a human I tend to agree with your answer and feel strongly I would do as you suggested, however I did read that even a venial sin is so abhorred by Our Lord that to tell a lie even to save the life of others is a sin.

It was in a Catholic catechism book, I believe the title was "the Ark and the Dove"

No, lying under extreme circuмstances to save one's life isn't a sin. If a person breaks into your house, holds a gun up to your head and asks you if there's anyone in your house besides you, then you have two options. You can either tell the truth and say "yes" which would put the other people in a dangerous and unfair position, or you could say "no" to save their life. See, the person with the gun doesn't have your best interest (obviously), so God would understand if you lied to save your beloved one's life. God does not expect us to be truthful to somone who means us serious harm.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2011, 11:19:56 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

No, lying under extreme circuмstances to save one's life isn't a sin.

You are wrong:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2011, 11:33:48 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
No, lying under extreme circuмstances to save one's life isn't a sin.

You are wrong:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm

No, you're wrong. Are you telling me that if someone with a gun got in your car and told you to take them to your house, you should tell the truth, take them to your house, and let them kill your family? That is just ridiculous. Don't act like Heitanen did and start saying all these things are sins when they're really not.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2011, 11:37:13 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

No, you're wrong. Are you telling me that if someone with a gun got in your car and told you to take them to your house, you should tell the truth, take them to your house, and let them kill your family?

You really need to work on your logic. I never said anything like that.

Quote

That is just ridiculous. Don't act like Heitanen did and start saying all these things are sins when they're really not.

Lying is always forbidden SS. The subjective culpability is undoubtedly less in certain cases.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2011, 11:42:23 AM »

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According to the common teaching of St. Thomas and other divines, the hurtful lie is a mortal sin, but merely officious and jocose lies are of their own nature venial.

St. Thomas says:

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Therefore every lie is a sin

[quote]]It is one thing to withhold the truth, and another to utter a falsehood. The former is lawful sometimes, for a man is not bound to divulge all truth.[/quote]

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Now the sin of lying is aggravated, if by lying a person intends to injure another, and this is called a "mischievous" lie, while the sin of lying is diminished if it be directed to some good--either of pleasure and then it is a "jocose" lie, or of usefulness, and then we have the "officious" lie, whereby it is intended to help another person, or to save him from being injured. On this way lies are divided into the three kinds aforesaid.

I suspect that a murderer coming in my home asking if anyone else is there would fall under the category of not being required to reveal information. So one could say nothing, or say "Check for yourself." or "I'll never tell you." In the rare case that this would happen, I would assume that the person was going to kill us all anyway whether I lied or not.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2011, 01:57:36 PM »

SS, I am afraid you are wrong, I am not saying, I wouldn't lie to save my loved ones, but I am saying the catechism says, it is a venial sin, even to save a life.

This should impress on each and everyone one of us, how horrible sin is in the eyes of God. Yet even good Catholics sometime tell lies for such silly reasons, actually after I read that, I fear to tell a lie for frivolous reasons, even on the Internet I fear to lie ever since I read that. It is better not to answer.

Not to mean we can not make a mistake when we think we are posting something that we perceive as truth, I am talking about a deliberate lie.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2011, 02:12:23 PM »

Perhaps I should clairfy something here. When I say it's not a sin to lie to save someone's life, I'm not saying we should lie in court or anything if the person is guilty, even if it means he will lose his life if found guilty. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it's not a sin to lie to someone such as an insane killer if he intends to harm us or our family. It would actually be a sin if the killer asked where your family was and you told the truth and gave them away, now that would be a sin. See what I'm saying?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2011, 03:09:00 PM »

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I probably would do exactly that.

That however, does not change the catechism. When I read what I posted, I had to talk to my priest and the priest told me it was a sin to tell any lie, and that is the horror of sin.

This is probably why the Bible says even a just man falls 7 times a day.

I suggest you talk to your priest about a clarification.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2011, 03:13:14 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Perhaps I should clairfy something here. When I say it's not a sin to lie to save someone's life, I'm not saying we should lie in court or anything if the person is guilty, even if it means he will lose his life if found guilty. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it's not a sin to lie to someone such as an insane killer if he intends to harm us or our family. It would actually be a sin if the killer asked where your family was and you told the truth and gave them away, now that would be a sin. See what I'm saying?

You show a tendency to disregard Church teachings for your own opinion.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2011, 03:32:09 PM »

In the case of a murderer trying to kill your children or something, you can use mental reservation that sounds a lot like lying.

If he says "Where are the kids?" you can say "Not here." If you're in the bathroom and the kids are in the living room downstairs, it's the truth, isn't it? According to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on mental reservation, you can even say "They're not at home," with the implication that "they're not at home for you to see" or something like that.

Catholic Encyclopedia on Mental Reservation --

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"According to the common Catholic teaching it is never allowable to tell a lie, not even to save human life. A lie is something intrinsically evil, and as evil may not be done that good may come of it, we are never allowed to tell a lie. However, we are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully, and sometimes the easiest way of fulfilling that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie. Writers of all creeds and of none, both ancient and modern, have frankly accepted this position. They admit the doctrine of the lie of necessity, and maintain that when there is a conflict between justice and veracity it is justice that should prevail. The common Catholic teaching has formulated the theory of mental reservation as a means by which the claims of both justice and veracity can be satisfied.

Still curious about my original question. Telesphorus brought it around to a veiled reference to his situation at SSPX

Zenith, you say it's a sin to pretend not to know that you ate your sister's blueberry pie, but keep in mind eating a family member's pie is not a sin or theft. We're not talking about covering up a crime here. Let's say there's a good motive to conceal the eating of the pie, like that your sister has a bad temper and will probably commit a sin of anger, trying to gouge your eyes out while blaspheming heinously, if she knows you ate it.

Is it ever a lie to simply not reveal information by pretending not to know something? If you ask "Someone ate your pie?" and you know full well you ate it, is that deception? Or could it be seen as just neutral? Is it only a lie if you say flat-out "I don't know who ate your pie"?

Maybe a better response to your sister asking after the whereabouts of the pie would be, "Someone ate your pie" spoken in a flat monotone, but which she will ASSUME is a question. Or you could say "So you're saying someone ate your pie?" If you are just silent, though, she'll know you ate it.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2011, 03:43:26 PM »

Mental reservations aren't to be used on a whim. There has to be a grave reason to use them.