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Author Topic: Predestination and those Saved  (Read 557 times)

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Offline nadieimportante

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Predestination and those Saved
« on: September 30, 2012, 03:45:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Nadie,

    I think that if someone runs into the truth, but stubbornly denies it....then He/She is putting His or Her soul into danger. This would be the case for Jєωs, heretics, etc.

    I know you don't want to hear this, but Vatican II distinguishes between 2 different types of heretics. One type being the type which didn't know better, and the other type stubbornly denying. The first type may still have a chance for salvation in the case that they die without conversion to the faith. The other having no chance at all. I agree with this ideology.


    Romans 8:29‐30‐ “For whom He foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable
    to the image of his Son: that he might be the first‐born amongst many brethren.
    And whom he predestinated, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
    justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

    As Catholics, of course, we don’t believe as the heretic John Calvin, who held a
    predestination according to which no matter what one does he is either predestined for
    heaven or hell. That is a wicked heresy. Rather, as Catholics we believe in the true
    understanding of predestination, which is expressed by St. Isaac Jogues and Romans 8
    above. This true understanding of predestination simply means that God’s
    foreknowledge from all eternity makes sure that those who are of good will and are
    sincere will be brought to the Catholic faith and come to know what they must – and
    that those who are not brought to the Catholic faith and don’t know what they must
    were not among the elect.

    We also know that the Holy Ghost specifically forbade the Apostles to preach the
    Gospel in certain places, most probably because of the bad will that they would
    encounter.

    Acts 16:6‐ “And when they had passed through Phrygia, and the country of
    Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia.”
    2 Corinthians 4:3‐4: “And if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In
    whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that
    the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should
    not shine unto them.”

    Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905:
    “And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that
    a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that
    everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which
    must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”330

    therefore it should be clear to every 'Catholic
    Outside the Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation. PERIOD
     
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline nadieimportante

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    Predestination and those Saved
    « Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 04:45:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: gooch


    Romans 8:29‐30‐ “For whom He foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable
    to the image of his Son: that he might be the first‐born amongst many brethren.
    And whom he predestinated, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
    justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

    This true understanding of predestination simply means that God’s
    foreknowledge from all eternity makes sure that those who are of good will and are
    sincere will be brought to the Catholic faith and come to know what they must – and
    that those who are not brought to the Catholic faith and don’t know what they must
    were not among the elect.

    Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905:
    “And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that
    a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that
    everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which
    must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”330
     


    This true understanding of predestination simply means that God’s foreknowledge from all eternity (before the beginning of time God knew every reaction we would have to his Grace, whether we would reject him in the beginning, middle, or end) makes sure that those who (He foreknew from the beginning of time) are of good will and are sincere, will be brought to the Catholic faith and come to know what they must – and that those who are not brought to the Catholic faith and don’t know what they must (are so because God foreknew they would reject His Grace)
    were not among the elect.


    We are not born in a location by pure chance, we are born according to God's  predestination. A person born on an island was put there by God.

    We can't learn the true faith by our own wits. We can only learn the faith by God's Grace.

    We can't can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in us that which the Almighty has predestined.




    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline nadieimportante

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    Predestination and those Saved
    « Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 04:56:33 PM »
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  • God predestines the graces by which His elect become Catholic

    Saint Augustine explained that the graces by which the predestined are eternally assumed into Christ comprise:

     - The preaching of the Gospel by which the elect are given the word to which they consent;

    - The thought that the word of the Faith is to be believed;

    - The will to accept the Faith by which they are brought to baptism into Christ;

    - Perseverance in the Faith and in righteousness;

    - Or in the case of the elect who die in infancy, at least the baptism by which they are eternally assumed into Christ.

     

    It is all God’s doing by which the elect are infallibly saved in the Catholic Church.  This was indicated by the Apostle Peter upon the founding of the Church at Pentecost: “And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47)  And the Lord says: “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” (Saint John 10:14)

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Predestination and those Saved
    « Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 01:00:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante


    God predestines the graces by which His elect become Catholic

    Saint Augustine explained that the graces by which the predestined are eternally assumed into Christ comprise:

     - The preaching of the Gospel by which the elect are given the word to which they consent;

    - The thought that the word of the Faith is to be believed;

    - The will to accept the Faith by which they are brought to baptism into Christ;

    - Perseverance in the Faith and in righteousness;

    - Or in the case of the elect who die in infancy, at least the baptism by which they are eternally assumed into Christ.

     

    It is all God’s doing by which the elect are infallibly saved in the Catholic Church.  This was indicated by the Apostle Peter upon the founding of the Church at Pentecost: “And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47)  And the Lord says: “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” (Saint John 10:14)



    As we can see above, Our salvation is all God's doing (except maybe we lean 1/10 of 1 degree in the right direction, if that much).

    Then how can someone say that a person died by accident before they could be baptized? How can they say that someone who Our Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them that which the Almighty has predestined?

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Predestination and those Saved
    « Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 01:23:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante


    God predestines the graces by which His elect become Catholic

    Saint Augustine explained that the graces by which the predestined are eternally assumed into Christ comprise:

     - The preaching of the Gospel by which the elect are given the word to which they consent;

    - The thought that the word of the Faith is to be believed;

    - The will to accept the Faith by which they are brought to baptism into Christ;

    - Perseverance in the Faith and in righteousness;

    - Or in the case of the elect who die in infancy, at least the baptism by which they are eternally assumed into Christ.

     

    It is all God’s doing by which the elect are infallibly saved in the Catholic Church.  This was indicated by the Apostle Peter upon the founding of the Church at Pentecost: “And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47)  And the Lord says: “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” (Saint John 10:14)



    As we can see above, Our salvation is all God's doing (except maybe we lean 1/10 of 1 degree in the right direction, if that much).

    Then how can someone say that a person died by accident before they could be baptized? How can they say that someone who Our Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them that which the Almighty has predestined?

    They could easily also say that they are "snatched away" from God's predestination before:

    God provides the preaching of the Gospel by which the elect are given the word to which they consent, or before

    or before The thought that the word of the Faith is to be believed;

    or before God gives them the will to accept the Faith by which they are brought to baptism into Christ;

    or before God gives them the perseverance in the Faith and in righteousness;

    Why only focus on the person "being snatched" at the very end, just before they are baptized in water?

    What's so difficult about baptizing in water? Seems to me that it is harder for God to convert someone, the other steps above, and there are more of them, than the grace of baptism in water. Why can a person then "be snatched" at the easiest to fullfil moment for God?

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine