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Author Topic: Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary  (Read 54007 times)

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Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 12:42:56 AM »
After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as "terrible." He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last "for centuries."

Here's a good rule of thumb: Should you ever find that your own musings and interpretations are leading you to a conclusion that contradicts immemorial Catholic tradition, cease those musings immediately and pray a rosary for an increase in humility.

Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 01:17:48 AM »
Quote from: Marlelar
Could you supply the book, and chapter where she said these things?  It certainly is not in line with what we've always been taught about Purgatory.  Perhaps you have misunderstood her?

I can certainly understand them being "happy", because they know they will eventually be in heaven.  And I understand them not wanting their punishment to be lessened, because it is what is due for their sins and they wouldn't want to go to heaven "sullied", (even if that were possible) but I am surprised that she says they are not aware of those who pray for them.


The book is her Life and Doctrine, the last part of the book is called Treatise on Purgatory. These are the passages that gave me a different view of Purgatory other than the one i had:

Quote
Chapter 1:

They are so contented with the divine dispositions in their regard; and with doing all that is pleasing to God in that way which he chooses, that they cannot think of themselves, though they may strive to do so. They see nothing but the operation of the divine goodness which is so manifestly bringing them to God that they can reflect neither on their own profit nor on their hurt. Could they do so, they would not be in pure charity. They see not that they suffer their pains in consequence of their sins, nor can they or a moment entertain that thought, for should they do so it would be an active imperfection, and that cannot exist in a state where there is no longer the possibility of sin.

Chapter 2:
The pain never diminishes, although the time does, but as to the will, so united is it to God by pure charity, and so satisfied to be under his divine appointment, that these souls can never say their pains are pains.

Chapter 13:
And if pious offerings be made for them by persons in this world, they cannot now note them with satisfaction, unless, indeed, in reference to the will of God and the balance of his justice, leaving to him the ordering of the whole, who repays himself as best pleases his infinite goodness. Could they regard these alms apart from the divine will concerning them, this would be a return to self, which would shut from their view the will of God, and that would be to them like hell. Therefore they are unmoved by whatever God gives them, whether it be pleasure or pain, nor can they ever again revert to self.

Chapter 16:
They suffer their pains so willingly that they would not lighten them in the least, knowing how justly they have been deserved. They resist the will of God no more than if they had already entered upon eternal life.


The thing is, before i had read what St. Catherine said, i had only read things where revelations, apparitions etc. about Purgatory were given where the souls were depicted as suffering very much and begging whoever they appeared to to pray for them, offer Masses etc. so they could get out of Purgatory as soon as possible. They would show them their torments and sufferings and this would excite pity on the person and hence would urge them to help them and so on. This gave me a sense of urgency as well, to pray for them.

I read these things in Fr. Schouppe's book on Purgatory and in many other articles in traditioninaction.org on the subject.

But the passages i quoted seem to conflict with all i had read and gives the impression that they would never do such a thing, that is, appear to someone on earth begging for help to get out of Purgatory and lessen their time there; that they're fine where they are, gladly waiting and suffering because it is the will of God.

The quote from chapter 13 especially doesn't look like they would appear to someone in Earth to beg for help.

I don't know i may be reading this all wrong, but i was certainly left with these impressions, and i don't like it because like i said it removed the sense of urgency i had, because now i think, "Well, they want to suffer and be there, so what's the urgency?" I feel bad about that but i can't help it, i have to be honest.


Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 01:20:05 AM »
Quote from: wxg101
Be careful... You are wading into dangerous territory... I warn you out of charity, not out of bad will.

"Epiphanius (Haer., lxxv, P.G., XLII, col. 513) complains that Aërius (fourth century) taught that prayers for the dead were of no avail. ... St. Bernard (Serm. lxvi in Cantic., P.L. CLXXXIII, col. 1098) states that the so-called 'Apostolici' (heretics from the 13th-14th centuries) denied purgatory and the utility of prayers for the departed."

Catholic Encyclopedia entry for "Purgatory"

I am not saying you are rejecting the notion of purgatory. Yet, I am saying that it is just as dangerous to reject the necessity of praying for souls in purgatory as it is denying it.

I think this is good occasion also to quote one of my favorite passages in Scripture:

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

(I Timothy, ch. ii, verse xii)



I'm not questioning or doubting that prayers for the dead avail them, the existence of Purgatory, or the utility of the prayers for them. Read my second post to see what it is that i feel.

Also, I'm not a woman.

Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 01:35:23 AM »
Quote from: Malleus

I'm not questioning or doubting that prayers for the dead avail them, the existence of Purgatory, or the utility of the prayers for them. Read my second post to see what it is that i feel.



What you "feel" on this subject is irrelevant. The Church has preached the need for prayer for the dead to expedite their entry into Heaven from Her very inception; that's all you or I need to know about the subject, regardless of what we feel.

Quote from: Malleus


Also, I'm not a woman.


The mere fact that your post elicited that mistake is telling in and of itself. Reason (and pray) more. Feel less.

Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 01:35:47 AM »
Quote from: poche
It would greatly alleiviate their suffering if you were to pray for them.


That's the thing, what I posted says they WANT to suffer and be where they are.