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Author Topic: Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary  (Read 12836 times)

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Offline Malleus

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Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« on: April 01, 2015, 11:09:40 PM »
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  • What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory made me think the way this thread is titled. Things like the souls there being happy with their punishment and not wanting it to be lessened, not really "suffering" in the real sense of suffering, the souls there not even being aware of the people who pray for them and many other things.

    Before I read those revelations I had a sense of urgency for the "suffering" souls, but after it was like "Why am I even praying for them and what's the big deal if they actually desire to be where they are and to atone".


    Offline wxg101

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #1 on: April 01, 2015, 11:28:10 PM »
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  • Be careful... You are wading into dangerous territory... I warn you out of charity, not out of bad will.

    "Epiphanius (Haer., lxxv, P.G., XLII, col. 513) complains that Aërius (fourth century) taught that prayers for the dead were of no avail. ... St. Bernard (Serm. lxvi in Cantic., P.L. CLXXXIII, col. 1098) states that the so-called 'Apostolici' (heretics from the 13th-14th centuries) denied purgatory and the utility of prayers for the departed."

    Catholic Encyclopedia entry for "Purgatory"

    I am not saying you are rejecting the notion of purgatory. Yet, I am saying that it is just as dangerous to reject the necessity of praying for souls in purgatory as it is denying it.

    I think this is good occasion also to quote one of my favorite passages in Scripture:

    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

    (I Timothy, ch. ii, verse xii)

    "An other parable he proposed vnto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a mustard-seede, vvhich a man tooke and sovved in his field. Which is the least surely of al seedes: but vvhen it is grovven, it is greater then al herbes, and is made a tre


    Offline poche

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #2 on: April 01, 2015, 11:29:31 PM »
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  • The joy of the souls in Purgatory is great because they are among the elect of God and their place in Heaven is assured. However they are suffering greatly. It would greatly alleiviate their suffering if you were to pray for them.

    Offline poche

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #3 on: April 01, 2015, 11:48:06 PM »
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  • St Padre Pio’s visions of the souls in Purgatory


    In May, 1922, Padre Pio testified the following to the Bishop of Melfi, His Excellency Alberto Costa and also the superior of the friary, Padre Lorenzo of San Marco along with 5 other friars. One of the five friars, Fra Alberto D' Apolito of San Giovanni Rotondo wrote down the account as follows:


    "While in the friary on a winter afternoon after a heavy snowfall, he was sitting by the fireplace one evening in the guest room, absorbed in prayer, when an old man, wearing an old-fashioned cloak still worn by southern Italian peasants at the time, sat down beside him. Concerning this man Pio states: ‘I could not imagine how he could have entered the friary at this time of night since all the doors are locked. I questioned him: 'Who are you? What do you want?'

    The old man told him, "Padre Pio, I am Pietro Di Mauro, son of Nicola, nicknamed Precoco." He went on to say, "I died in this friary on the 18th of September, 1908, in cell number 4, when it was still a poorhouse. One night, while in bed, I fell asleep with a lighted cigar, which ignited the mattress and I died, suffocated and burned. I am still in Purgatory. I need a holy Mass in order to be freed. God permitted that I come and ask you for help."

    According to Padre Pio: "After listening to him, I replied, 'Rest assured that tomorrow I will celebrate Mass for your liberation.' I arose and accompanied him to the door of the friary, so that he could leave. I did not realize at that moment that the door was closed and locked: I opened it and bade him farewell The moon lit up the square, covered with snow. When I no longer saw him in front of me, I was taken by a sense of fear, and I closed the door, reentered the guest room, and felt faint.”

    A few days later, Padre Pio also told the story to Padre Paolino, and the two decided to go to the town hall, where they looked at the vital statistics for the year I908 and found that on September 18 of that year, one Pietro Di Mauro had in fact died of burns and asphyxiation in Room Number 4 at the friary, then used as a home for the homeless.


    Around the same time, Padre Pio told Fra Alberto of another apparition of a soul from Purgatory which also occurred around the same time. He said:

    One evening, when I was absorbed in prayer in the choir of the little church I was shaken and disturbed by the sound of footsteps, and candles and flower vases being moved on the main altar. Thinking that someone must be there, I called out, "Who is it?"

    No one answered. Returning to prayer, I was again disturbed by the same noises. In fact, this time I had the impression that one of the candles, which was in front of the statue of Our Lady of Grace, had fallen. Wanting to see what was happening on the altar, I stood up, went close to the grate and saw, in the shadow of the light of the Tabernacle lamp, a young confrere doing some cleaning. I yelled out, "What are you doing in the dark?" The little friar answered, "I am cleaning."

    "You clean in the dark?" I asked. "Who are you?"

    The little friar said, ‘I am a Capuchin novice, who spends his time of Purgatory here. I am in need of prayers.’ and then he disappeared,"

    Padre Pio stated that he immediately began praying for him as requested, and it is not known if he had any further dealings with this particular soul. However, in regards souls in Purgatory it is very interesting to note that later in life Padre Pio once said that ‘As many souls of the dead come up this road [to the monastery] as that of the souls of the living.” Without a doubt, many souls from Purgatory visited Padre Pio seeking his prayers, sacrifices and sufferings to obtain their release.

    http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2012/04/amazing-stories-from-purgatory-and.html

    Offline Marlelar

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 12:32:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory made me think the way this thread is titled. Things like the souls there being happy with their punishment and not wanting it to be lessened, not really "suffering" in the real sense of suffering, the souls there not even being aware of the people who pray for them and many other things.

    Before I read those revelations I had a sense of urgency for the "suffering" souls, but after it was like "Why am I even praying for them and what's the big deal if they actually desire to be where they are and to atone".


    Could you supply the book, and chapter where she said these things?  It certainly is not in line with what we've always been taught about Purgatory.  Perhaps you have misunderstood her?

    I can certainly understand them being "happy", because they know they will eventually be in heaven.  And I understand them not wanting their punishment to be lessened, because it is what is due for their sins and they wouldn't want to go to heaven "sullied", (even if that were possible) but I am surprised that she says they are not aware of those who pray for them.


    Offline BTNYC

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 12:42:56 AM »
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  • After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as "terrible." He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last "for centuries."

    Here's a good rule of thumb: Should you ever find that your own musings and interpretations are leading you to a conclusion that contradicts immemorial Catholic tradition, cease those musings immediately and pray a rosary for an increase in humility.

    Offline Malleus

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 01:17:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Could you supply the book, and chapter where she said these things?  It certainly is not in line with what we've always been taught about Purgatory.  Perhaps you have misunderstood her?

    I can certainly understand them being "happy", because they know they will eventually be in heaven.  And I understand them not wanting their punishment to be lessened, because it is what is due for their sins and they wouldn't want to go to heaven "sullied", (even if that were possible) but I am surprised that she says they are not aware of those who pray for them.


    The book is her Life and Doctrine, the last part of the book is called Treatise on Purgatory. These are the passages that gave me a different view of Purgatory other than the one i had:

    Quote
    Chapter 1:

    They are so contented with the divine dispositions in their regard; and with doing all that is pleasing to God in that way which he chooses, that they cannot think of themselves, though they may strive to do so. They see nothing but the operation of the divine goodness which is so manifestly bringing them to God that they can reflect neither on their own profit nor on their hurt. Could they do so, they would not be in pure charity. They see not that they suffer their pains in consequence of their sins, nor can they or a moment entertain that thought, for should they do so it would be an active imperfection, and that cannot exist in a state where there is no longer the possibility of sin.

    Chapter 2:
    The pain never diminishes, although the time does, but as to the will, so united is it to God by pure charity, and so satisfied to be under his divine appointment, that these souls can never say their pains are pains.

    Chapter 13:
    And if pious offerings be made for them by persons in this world, they cannot now note them with satisfaction, unless, indeed, in reference to the will of God and the balance of his justice, leaving to him the ordering of the whole, who repays himself as best pleases his infinite goodness. Could they regard these alms apart from the divine will concerning them, this would be a return to self, which would shut from their view the will of God, and that would be to them like hell. Therefore they are unmoved by whatever God gives them, whether it be pleasure or pain, nor can they ever again revert to self.

    Chapter 16:
    They suffer their pains so willingly that they would not lighten them in the least, knowing how justly they have been deserved. They resist the will of God no more than if they had already entered upon eternal life.


    The thing is, before i had read what St. Catherine said, i had only read things where revelations, apparitions etc. about Purgatory were given where the souls were depicted as suffering very much and begging whoever they appeared to to pray for them, offer Masses etc. so they could get out of Purgatory as soon as possible. They would show them their torments and sufferings and this would excite pity on the person and hence would urge them to help them and so on. This gave me a sense of urgency as well, to pray for them.

    I read these things in Fr. Schouppe's book on Purgatory and in many other articles in traditioninaction.org on the subject.

    But the passages i quoted seem to conflict with all i had read and gives the impression that they would never do such a thing, that is, appear to someone on earth begging for help to get out of Purgatory and lessen their time there; that they're fine where they are, gladly waiting and suffering because it is the will of God.

    The quote from chapter 13 especially doesn't look like they would appear to someone in Earth to beg for help.

    I don't know i may be reading this all wrong, but i was certainly left with these impressions, and i don't like it because like i said it removed the sense of urgency i had, because now i think, "Well, they want to suffer and be there, so what's the urgency?" I feel bad about that but i can't help it, i have to be honest.

    Offline Malleus

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 01:20:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: wxg101
    Be careful... You are wading into dangerous territory... I warn you out of charity, not out of bad will.

    "Epiphanius (Haer., lxxv, P.G., XLII, col. 513) complains that Aërius (fourth century) taught that prayers for the dead were of no avail. ... St. Bernard (Serm. lxvi in Cantic., P.L. CLXXXIII, col. 1098) states that the so-called 'Apostolici' (heretics from the 13th-14th centuries) denied purgatory and the utility of prayers for the departed."

    Catholic Encyclopedia entry for "Purgatory"

    I am not saying you are rejecting the notion of purgatory. Yet, I am saying that it is just as dangerous to reject the necessity of praying for souls in purgatory as it is denying it.

    I think this is good occasion also to quote one of my favorite passages in Scripture:

    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

    (I Timothy, ch. ii, verse xii)



    I'm not questioning or doubting that prayers for the dead avail them, the existence of Purgatory, or the utility of the prayers for them. Read my second post to see what it is that i feel.

    Also, I'm not a woman.


    Offline BTNYC

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 01:35:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus

    I'm not questioning or doubting that prayers for the dead avail them, the existence of Purgatory, or the utility of the prayers for them. Read my second post to see what it is that i feel.



    What you "feel" on this subject is irrelevant. The Church has preached the need for prayer for the dead to expedite their entry into Heaven from Her very inception; that's all you or I need to know about the subject, regardless of what we feel.

    Quote from: Malleus


    Also, I'm not a woman.


    The mere fact that your post elicited that mistake is telling in and of itself. Reason (and pray) more. Feel less.

    Offline Malleus

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 01:35:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    It would greatly alleiviate their suffering if you were to pray for them.


    That's the thing, what I posted says they WANT to suffer and be where they are.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 01:42:29 AM »
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  • Infallible decrees have already settled the matter of Purgatory and how the prayers of the living are beneficial for the souls in state of cleansing or expiation.

    Quote from: Council of Lyons, 1274

    If those who are truly penitent die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments….The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.


    Quote from: Council of Trent, 1563

    Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the Sacred Writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecuмenical synod that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught and everywhere proclaimed by the faithful of Christ.


    There is no denial that the souls in Purgatory are in fact suffering but as Catholics, we think of suffering as something actually positive that God allows or even causes upon His children, in order for us to be cleansed from sin and made us worthy of His kingdom, that means being perfect. It is Catholic teaching that we must suffer in order to enter Heaven, so the suffering of the souls in purgatory should be understood under this context, meaning that the suffering is actually beneficial for the process of human perfection -> salvation.

    Remember that the souls in purgatory are already saved. They just need to be cleansed from all imperfection in order to go to Heaven as their final destination and our prayers help to that effect but because suffering is meritorious and has a relationship with our salvation, Purgatory could actually be taken as a gift from God in His Infinite mercy. This particular type of meritorious suffering is inflicted only on believing Catholics.

    "My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (Hebrews 12)"
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Malleus

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2015, 01:42:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: Malleus

    I'm not questioning or doubting that prayers for the dead avail them, the existence of Purgatory, or the utility of the prayers for them. Read my second post to see what it is that i feel.



    What you "feel" on this subject is irrelevant. The Church has preached the need for prayer for the dead to expedite their entry into Heaven from Her very inception; that's all you or I need to know about the subject, regardless of what we feel.


    You do not see why i would think what i'm thinking based on the quotes i posted?

    Yes, i agree with what you say here, but then i read what St. Catherine said and it was like "Wait, what?"

    Quote from: BTNYC
    Quote from: Malleus


    Also, I'm not a woman.


    The mere fact that your post elicited that mistake is telling in and of itself. Reason (and pray) more. Feel less.


    Well, my username doesn't hint at either gender, and perhaps the poster should explain why he/she thought i was a woman.

    It's not just about "feeling" here. I posted an argument as to why it led to those "feelings".

    Offline wxg101

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2015, 01:49:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory...
    .


    This is what I refer to when I quote St. Paul. Not you.

    There's an obvious reason why this woman's writings contradict those of others.

    I Timothy ch. ii verse xii.

    Period.

    I just find it interesting that the doctrine came into question after reading a woman's writings on it.

    As per the Douay Rheims Catholic Bible Commentary on aforementioned verse:

    "In times of licentiousness, liberty, and heresy, women are much given to reading, disputing chatting and jangling of the Holy Scriptures, yeah and to teach also if they might be permitted, but S. Paul utterly forbiddeth it, and the Greek Doctors upon this place note that the woman taught but once, that was when after her reasoning with Satan, she persuaded her husband to transgression, and so she undid all mankind. And in the Ecclesiastical writers we find that women have been great promoters of every sort of heresy (whereof see a notable discourse in S. Jerome's ep. ad (Ctesiph?) contra Pelagianus c. 2) which they would not have done, if according to the Apostle's rule, followed piety and good works, and lived in silence and subjection to their husbands."

    This woman, as well as a couple others that have followed this example, are from the 4th Age of the Church, in which Christ says to those living in that Age:

    "But I have against thee a few things: because thou sufferest the woman Jezabel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication and to eat of things sacrificed to idols."

    (Revelation ch. ii verse xx)

    I am not calling into question this woman's sainthood.

    All I am saying is that don't let a woman teach you doctrine that she should not be teaching in the first place. There's no exception to I Timothy ch. ii verse xii. Period.

    "After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as 'terrible.' He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last 'for centuries.'"

    This statement here completely refutes your entire earlier position.

    I am just saying... be careful. Traps are set everywhere. It would be unwise to think we all are immune to them.

    Martin Luther began with a general inquiry on indulgences... and then turned into a complete heretic.
    "An other parable he proposed vnto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a mustard-seede, vvhich a man tooke and sovved in his field. Which is the least surely of al seedes: but vvhen it is grovven, it is greater then al herbes, and is made a tre

    Offline Malleus

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #13 on: April 02, 2015, 01:50:23 AM »
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  • I have to repeat here that I'm not saying praying for the souls in Purgatory is not necessary; it's only because that's actually what i believed that i was shocked when i read those things because it made me wonder whether it really was.

    Offline Malleus

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    Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
    « Reply #14 on: April 02, 2015, 01:58:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: wxg101
    Quote from: Malleus
    What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory...
    .


    This is what I refer to when I quote St. Paul. Not you.


    Oh. I never saw that coming.

    Quote from: wxg101
    "After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as 'terrible.' He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last 'for centuries.'"

    This statement here completely refutes your entire earlier position.


    I already said this is the thought I always had before i read what i posted.