After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as "terrible." He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last "for centuries."

Here's a good rule of thumb: Should you ever find that your own musings and interpretations are leading you to a conclusion that contradicts immemorial Catholic tradition, cease those musings immediately and pray a rosary for an increase in humility.

Why is Innocent III in purgatory acc to St Lutgarda?    :confused1:

Quote from: Malleus

What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory...
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This is what I refer to when I quote St. Paul. Not you.

There's an obvious reason why this woman's writings contradict those of others.

I Timothy ch. ii verse xii.

Period.

I just find it interesting that the doctrine came into question after reading a woman's writings on it.

As per the Douay Rheims Catholic Bible Commentary on aforementioned verse:

"In times of licentiousness, liberty, and heresy, women are much given to reading, disputing chatting and jangling of the Holy Scriptures, yeah and to teach also if they might be permitted, but S. Paul utterly forbiddeth it, and the Greek Doctors upon this place note that the woman taught but once, that was when after her reasoning with Satan, she persuaded her husband to transgression, and so she undid all mankind. And in the Ecclesiastical writers we find that women have been great promoters of every sort of heresy (whereof see a notable discourse in S. Jerome's ep. ad (Ctesiph?) contra Pelagianus c. 2) which they would not have done, if according to the Apostle's rule, followed piety and good works, and lived in silence and subjection to their husbands."

This woman, as well as a couple others that have followed this example, are from the 4th Age of the Church, in which Christ says to those living in that Age:

"But I have against thee a few things: because thou sufferest the woman Jezabel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication and to eat of things sacrificed to idols."

(Revelation ch. ii verse xx)

I am not calling into question this woman's sainthood.

All I am saying is that don't let a woman teach you doctrine that she should not be teaching in the first place. There's no exception to I Timothy ch. ii verse xii. Period.

"After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as 'terrible.' He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last 'for centuries.'"

This statement here completely refutes your entire earlier position.

I am just saying... be careful. Traps are set everywhere. It would be unwise to think we all are immune to them.

Martin Luther began with a general inquiry on indulgences... and then turned into a complete heretic.

It's not who says it that determines its truthfulness.  

Let's keep praying for the souls in purgatory.

I know Easter follows Lent but that doesn't mean I don't want Lent to hurry up and get over with....   :stare:

I know Easter follows Lent but that doesn't mean I don't want Lent to hurry up and get over with....   :stare:

Im not sure I understood what you said here.

You want Lent to be over?

"It is true that the Divine love which overwhelms the soul gives, as I think, a peace greater than that which can be expressed, yet this peace does not in the least diminish her pains, nay, it is love delayed which occasions them, and they are greater in proportion to the perfection of the love of which God has made her capable."

- Treatise on Purgatory (Chapter 12, page 318)

http://www.helpersoftheholysouls.com/ourpatron_plus/purgatory_saints/StCatharineOfGenoa.htm

Malleus, our knowledge and belief about the souls in Purgatory come from the Church and the saints help us to feed that desire to do God's Will in what the Church teaches.

Besides there are many other saints who inspire us to come to the aid of the holy souls. So if you are having trouble with St Catharine of Genoa you should move on. Don't let any one saint whom you think is not in  conformity to the general belief of the Church become larger than she is in reality. Put her on the backburner, as it were, and maybe when you are more mature in the Faith, it will all fall into place.

God bless you.

From the manuscript of Sister M. de L.C., written from 1874-1890

To get an idea of how Purgatory is arranged, we can get a good glimpse of it from a nun from France who had died on February 22, 1871 at the age of 36, and 2-1/2 years later (in November 1873) she began appearing from Purgatory to a fellow nun in her convent, named Sister M. de L.C (name kept anonymous in the manuscript to protect the nuns identity, as the manuscript was published while the nun was still living) as related in the booklet “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory” published by The Reparation Society of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Inc., 2002:

“I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, it is like a temporary hell, and here there are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.

Next to these come the souls, who though they did not com¬mit great crimes like the others, were indifferent to God. They did not fulfill their Easter duties and were also converted at the point of death. Many were unable to receive Holy Communion. They are in Purgatory for the long years of indifference. They suffer unheard of pains and are abandoned either without prayers or if they are said for them, they are not allowed to profit by them. There are in this stage of Purgatory religious of both sexes, who were tepid, neglectful of their duties, indifferent towards Jesus, also priests who did not exercise their sacred ministry with the reverence due to the Sovereign Majesty and who did not instill the love of God sufficiently into the souls confided to their care. I was in this stage of Purgatory.

In the second Purgatory are the souls of those who died with venial sins not fully expiated before death, or with mortal sins that have been forgiven but for which they have not made entire satisfaction to the Divine Justice. In this part of Purgatory, there are also different degrees according to the merits of each soul.

Thus the Purgatory of the consecrated souls or of those who have received more abundant graces, is longer and far more painful than that of ordinary people of the world.

Lastly, there is the Purgatory of desire which is called the Threshold. Very few escape this. To avoid it altogether, one must ardently desire Heaven and the vision of God. That is rare, rarer than people think, because even pious people are afraid of God and have not, therefore, a sufficiently strong desire of going to Heaven. This Purgatory has its very painful martyrdom like the others. The deprivation of the sight of our loving Jesus adds to the intense suffering.”

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2012/04/amazing-stories-from-purgatory-and.html

Another explanation of the levels in Purgatory from this same book:

Retreat, August 1878: “Great sinners who were indifferent towards God, and religious who were not what they should have been are in the lowest stage of Purgatory. While they are there, the prayers offered up for them are not applied to them. Because they have ignored God during their life, He now in His turn leaves them abandoned in order that they may repair their neglectful and worthless lives. While on earth one truly cannot picture or imagine what God really is, but we (in Purgatory) know and understand Him for what He is, because our souls are freed from all the ties that fettered them and prevented them from realizing the holiness and majesty of God and His great mercy. We are martyrs, consumed as it were by love. An irresistible force draws us towards God who is our center, but at the same time another force thrusts us back to our place of expiation.

We are in the state of being unable to satisfy our longings. Oh, what a suffering that is, but we desire it and there is no murmuring against God here. We desire only what God wants. You on earth, however, cannot possibly understand what we have to endure. I am much relieved as I am no longer in the fire. I have now only the insatiable desire to see God, a suffering cruel enough indeed, but I feel that the end of my exile is at hand and that I am soon to leave this place where I long for God with all my heart. I know it well, I feel more at ease, but I cannot tell you the day or the hour of my release. God alone knows that. It may be that I have still many years of longing for Heaven. Continue to pray; I will repay you later on, though I do pray a great deal for you now.”

Why is it that I pray for you with less fervor than I pray for others and that often I forget to recommend you?

Do not trouble yourself about that. It is a punishment for me.

Even if you prayed more I should not be any the more relieved. God wills it thus. If He wants you to pray more He will inspire you to do so. I repeat again, do not be worried about me. You will never see me in my sufferings. Later on, when your soul is stronger, you will see souls in Purgatory and very awful ones, but let this not frighten you. God will then give you the necessary courage and all that you need to accomplish His holy will.

Is this not a punishment?

No, certainly not, I am here for my relief and for your sanctification. If you would but pay a little more attention to what I say.

That is true but these happenings are so extraordinary that I do not know what to make of them; it is not an ordinary thing to hear you in this way.


I understand well your difficulty and I am aware of your sufferings on this account. However, if God wishes it and it relieves me, you will have pity on me, will you not? When I am released you will see that I will do far more for you than you have ever done for me. I already pray much for you.


Where is Sister --?


In the lowest Purgatory, where she receives no benefit from anyone's prayers. God is often displeased, if one may speak thus, when many religious come to die, because He has called these souls to Himself that they might serve Him faithfully on earth and go straight to Heaven at the moment of death, but because of their infidelity, they have to stay long in Purgatory - far longer than people in the world who have not had so many graces.


1879, Retreat in September. We see St. Michael as we see the angels. He has no body. He comes to get the souls that have finished their purification. It is he who conducts them to Heaven. He is among the Seraphim as Monsignor said. He is the highest angel in Heaven. Our own Guardian Angels come to see us but St. Michael is far more beautiful than they are. As to the Blessed Virgin, we see her in the body. She comes to Purgatory on her feasts and she goes back to Heaven with many souls. While she is with us we do not suffer. St. Michael accompanies her. When he comes alone, we suffer as usual. When I spoke to you of the great and the second Purgatory, it was to try to make you understand that there are different stages in Purgatory. Thus I call that stage of Purgatory “great” or “worst” where the most guilty souls are, and where I stayed for two years without being able to give a sign of the torments I was suffering. The year when you heard me groaning, when I began to speak to you, I was still in the same place.


In the second Purgatory, which is still Purgatory but very different from the first, one suffers a great deal, but less than in the great place of expiation. Then there is a third stage, which is the Purgatory of desire, where there is no fire. The souls who did not desire Heaven ardently enough, who did not love God sufficiently, are there. It is there that I am at this moment. Further, in these three parts of Purgatory, there are many degrees of variation. Little by little, as the soul becomes purified, her sufferings are changed.


You sometimes say to me that the perfecting of a soul is a long process and you are also astonished that after so many prayers, I am so long deprived of the sight of God. Alas, the perfecting of a soul does not take any less time in Purgatory than upon earth. There are a number of souls, but they are very few, who have only a few venial sins to expiate. These do not stay long in Purgatory. A few well-said prayers, a few sacrifices soon deliver them. But when there are souls like mine - and that is nearly all whose lives have been so empty and who paid little or no attention to their salvation - then their whole life has to be begun over again in this place of expiation. The soul has to perfect itself and love and desire Him, whom it did not love sufficiently on earth. This is the reason why the deliverance of some souls is delayed. God has given me a very great grace in allowing me to ask for prayers. I did not deserve it, but without this I would have remained like most of those here, for years and years more.”

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2012/04/amazing-stories-from-purgatory-and.html