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Author Topic: Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary  (Read 54015 times)

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Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 01:42:29 AM »
Infallible decrees have already settled the matter of Purgatory and how the prayers of the living are beneficial for the souls in state of cleansing or expiation.

Quote from: Council of Lyons, 1274

If those who are truly penitent die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments….The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.


Quote from: Council of Trent, 1563

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the Sacred Writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecuмenical synod that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught and everywhere proclaimed by the faithful of Christ.


There is no denial that the souls in Purgatory are in fact suffering but as Catholics, we think of suffering as something actually positive that God allows or even causes upon His children, in order for us to be cleansed from sin and made us worthy of His kingdom, that means being perfect. It is Catholic teaching that we must suffer in order to enter Heaven, so the suffering of the souls in purgatory should be understood under this context, meaning that the suffering is actually beneficial for the process of human perfection -> salvation.

Remember that the souls in purgatory are already saved. They just need to be cleansed from all imperfection in order to go to Heaven as their final destination and our prayers help to that effect but because suffering is meritorious and has a relationship with our salvation, Purgatory could actually be taken as a gift from God in His Infinite mercy. This particular type of meritorious suffering is inflicted only on believing Catholics.

"My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (Hebrews 12)"

Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2015, 01:42:40 AM »
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Malleus

I'm not questioning or doubting that prayers for the dead avail them, the existence of Purgatory, or the utility of the prayers for them. Read my second post to see what it is that i feel.



What you "feel" on this subject is irrelevant. The Church has preached the need for prayer for the dead to expedite their entry into Heaven from Her very inception; that's all you or I need to know about the subject, regardless of what we feel.


You do not see why i would think what i'm thinking based on the quotes i posted?

Yes, i agree with what you say here, but then i read what St. Catherine said and it was like "Wait, what?"

Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Malleus


Also, I'm not a woman.


The mere fact that your post elicited that mistake is telling in and of itself. Reason (and pray) more. Feel less.


Well, my username doesn't hint at either gender, and perhaps the poster should explain why he/she thought i was a woman.

It's not just about "feeling" here. I posted an argument as to why it led to those "feelings".


Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2015, 01:49:56 AM »
Quote from: Malleus
What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory...
.


This is what I refer to when I quote St. Paul. Not you.

There's an obvious reason why this woman's writings contradict those of others.

I Timothy ch. ii verse xii.

Period.

I just find it interesting that the doctrine came into question after reading a woman's writings on it.

As per the Douay Rheims Catholic Bible Commentary on aforementioned verse:

"In times of licentiousness, liberty, and heresy, women are much given to reading, disputing chatting and jangling of the Holy Scriptures, yeah and to teach also if they might be permitted, but S. Paul utterly forbiddeth it, and the Greek Doctors upon this place note that the woman taught but once, that was when after her reasoning with Satan, she persuaded her husband to transgression, and so she undid all mankind. And in the Ecclesiastical writers we find that women have been great promoters of every sort of heresy (whereof see a notable discourse in S. Jerome's ep. ad (Ctesiph?) contra Pelagianus c. 2) which they would not have done, if according to the Apostle's rule, followed piety and good works, and lived in silence and subjection to their husbands."

This woman, as well as a couple others that have followed this example, are from the 4th Age of the Church, in which Christ says to those living in that Age:

"But I have against thee a few things: because thou sufferest the woman Jezabel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication and to eat of things sacrificed to idols."

(Revelation ch. ii verse xx)

I am not calling into question this woman's sainthood.

All I am saying is that don't let a woman teach you doctrine that she should not be teaching in the first place. There's no exception to I Timothy ch. ii verse xii. Period.

"After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as 'terrible.' He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last 'for centuries.'"

This statement here completely refutes your entire earlier position.

I am just saying... be careful. Traps are set everywhere. It would be unwise to think we all are immune to them.

Martin Luther began with a general inquiry on indulgences... and then turned into a complete heretic.

Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2015, 01:50:23 AM »
I have to repeat here that I'm not saying praying for the souls in Purgatory is not necessary; it's only because that's actually what i believed that i was shocked when i read those things because it made me wonder whether it really was.

Praying for the souls in purgatory not necessary
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2015, 01:58:02 AM »
Quote from: wxg101
Quote from: Malleus
What I read in the revelations of St. Catherine of Genoa concerning Purgatory...
.


This is what I refer to when I quote St. Paul. Not you.


Oh. I never saw that coming.

Quote from: wxg101
"After his death, Pope Innocent III appeared to St. Lutgarda, describing the pains he was enduring in Purgatory as 'terrible.' He pleaded with her for her prayers, lest his torment last 'for centuries.'"

This statement here completely refutes your entire earlier position.


I already said this is the thought I always had before i read what i posted.