Author Topic: Praying for all sinners and non-Catholics (Read 1564 times)

Vanessa · « **on:** April 06, 2014, 02:42:14 AM »

Isn't it wrong (or at least futile) to pray for the conversion of all the sinners and non-Catholics of the world, since obviously that will never happen? Isn't that the same as if for example you were to pray that all nations become Catholic, being that it will never happen in this world? Shouldn't you pray instead that sinners and non-Catholics and specific persons convert, instead of saying the whole world?

MariaCatherine · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2014, 04:48:48 AM »

I think I know what you mean. I used to scruple about forming intentions that were too ambitious and 'wasting' prayers that might have been better applied to more 'realistic' goals.

But praying for the conversion of sinners is one of the most common intentions of Catholic prayers, as far as I'm aware. It's God's will that everyone be saved, so it couldn't be futile to pray for that. You could omit the word 'all', and just pray 'for the conversion of sinners'. If you're familiar with the Fatima apparitions of Our Lady, you might remember that this was one of the intentions the seers were asked to pray for.

Nishant · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2014, 07:06:10 AM »

We can and must pray for all those whom we can, because God wills all men to be saved, Jesus Our Lord died for all, and Mary Our Blessed Mother prayed for all in the course of Her life on Earth, even weeping Tears of Blood for them, as we learn from Ven. Mary of Agreda's Mystical City of God. That all souls will not be saved is not because God is unwilling but because men do not pray for it and desire it, nor work for it.

The value and efficacy of our prayers depends on our relative merits, and the charity with which we offer them. It is very difficult to obtain much for others, if we are not holy, or if we do not pray for them with great love, even with willingness to suffer in accordance with God's will.

If we offer any humble prayer to God for sinners, especially through the hands of Our Lady, we can be assured She will put them to best use, and it will certainly never be "wasted". Moreover, God who takes whatever is done for others as done to Himself will repay us a thousandfold.

Jesus said, "In offering My wounds for the conversion of sinners, even though the sinners are not converted, you will have the same merit before God as if they were"

In Fatima, Our Lady said, "Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them ... Are you willing to offer yourselves to God and bear all the sufferings He wills to send you, as an act of reparation for the conversion of sinners? Then you are going to have much to suffer, but the grace of God will be your comfort ... You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace."

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2014, 07:12:55 AM »

God wills all men to be saved, despite the fact that He knows that they won't be. Our Lord redeemed EVERY person's sins despite the fact that He knew that the vast majority would never take advantage of the redemption and that it would have no effect.

I have consecrated myself to Our Blessed Mother along the lines of St. Louis De Montfort, and I ask her to apply any merits and prayers, etc. according to her wishes.

No prayers are ever "wasted" with God. He can always redirect them as needed.

Exurge · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2014, 09:47:05 AM »

Since the number of the predestined is certain, and since not one of the predestined perishes, how can it be said that souls go to Hell because nobody prays for them? It sounds like potentially predestined souls who go to Hell by accident, because nobody prayed for them.

St. Thomas says that the antecedent or "original" number of the predestined cannot be changed by anyone's prayers and that it has been fixed by God, something like that.

MariaCatherine · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2014, 10:10:41 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

Since the number of the predestined is certain, and since not one of the predestined perishes, how can it be said that souls go to Hell because nobody prays for them? It sounds like potentially predestined souls who go to Hell by accident, because nobody prayed for them.

St. Thomas says that the antecedent or "original" number of the predestined cannot be changed by anyone's prayers and that it has been fixed by God, something like that.

I also used to wonder about this, until I realized I was getting into dangerous territory, because this touches on the mystery of predestination and free will, which, to our imperfect understanding, could seem, on the surface, to be a kind of contradiction. But it can't be, since it's revealed truth.

Change one of those points and you're a heretic. For example, if the number of the saved isn't known to God, then He cannot be omniscient. And if our prayers are ineffectual, then His commandments must be unreasonable.

Not only is it known how many souls will be saved, it's also known exactly who prayed for them, how many times, and with what kind of disposition. This is what I try to remind myself of when I pray. On the Last Day every single soul will know with what devotion and charity, or lack thereof, I prayed for the conversion of sinners.

Maybe this very simple analogy is appropriate: Just because God knows whether or not your car will start in the morning, it doesn't mean you don't need to use the key.

Mama ChaCha · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2014, 10:21:09 AM »

This is one of those situations that requires us to live within the mystery and not try to be certain of anything. It is all within the realm of the mystery of God's good grace.

People nitpick to be certain of things in a sort of desperate fear of wasted prayers or efforts. We should not worry because God hears us. He will use all of our efforts to the good and none will be wasted.
"Pray, hope and don't worry!" -Padre Pio

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2014, 10:44:28 AM »

I think prayers are helpful even if the person you pray for isn't saved. Your prayers could help make his eternity in hell a little less bad.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2014, 11:12:10 AM »

Well, even the fact that we pray for certain souls, is predestined by God. That doesn't mean we are excused from praying on the pretext of, "Oh, well, if I don't pray for sinners, it's just that God didn't mean for me to do so." Similarly, if I murder someone, God allowed that person to be murdered, but I'm still guilty of the sin of murder regardless of how it fit in with God's Will.

2Vermont · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2014, 11:44:17 AM »

I think when we recite our rosaries and we say the Fatima Prayer, this perfectly answers this question:

O my Jesus,
forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell,
and lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of your Mercy.
Amen.

Exurge · « **Reply #10 on:** April 06, 2014, 12:08:46 PM »

What if you have a lot of family members and you know a lot of people, should you mention them all by name or just saying that you're praying for all the people that you know, is enough?

Similarly, if you say you pray for the conversion of sinners and non-Catholics, is that enough to cover all the people you know, or will it make a difference if you specifically name some people?

soulguard · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2014, 12:38:52 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I think prayers are helpful even if the person you pray for isn't saved. Your prayers could help make his eternity in hell a little less bad.

This is a heresy. Once someone goes to hell they are beyond all help.

soulguard · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2014, 12:41:08 PM »

Quote from: Exurge

What if you have a lot of family members and you know a lot of people, should you mention them all by name or just saying that you're praying for all the people that you know, is enough?

Similarly, if you say you pray for the conversion of sinners and non-Catholics, is that enough to cover all the people you know, or will it make a difference if you specifically name some people?

The more time you put into your prayer the better,
but no amount of time is more meritorious than accompanying prayers with genuine emotion.

Exurge · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2014, 12:50:25 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

Quote from: Matto
I think prayers are helpful even if the person you pray for isn't saved. Your prayers could help make his eternity in hell a little less bad.

This is a heresy. Once someone goes to hell they are beyond all help.

I'm sure he meant praying for someone you didn't know went to Hell, not consciously praying for a damned person.

soulguard · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2014, 12:52:33 PM »

Quote from: Exurge

Quote from: soulguard
Quote from: Matto
I think prayers are helpful even if the person you pray for isn't saved. Your prayers could help make his eternity in hell a little less bad.

This is a heresy. Once someone goes to hell they are beyond all help.

I'm sure he meant praying for someone you didn't know went to Hell, not consciously praying for a damned person.

Well he was very clear "could help make his eternity in hell a little less bad".

It is good to provide Catholic pieces of doctrine to other posters so they dont go astray.