Author Topic: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked  (Read 2254 times)

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Offline poche

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Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2019, 10:44:37 PM »
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  • Poche is being deceitful. That quote is taken out of context.

    Pope St. Pius X didn't recognize the Jews because they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.

    "Jews have not recognized Our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people" ~ Pope St. Pius X
    It is true that His Holiness demonstrated theological and political disagreement with this particular zionist, but that doesn't mean that he had to be nasty toward them. He himself told Herzl that just that week he had a group of them. He dined with them. In his own words, he was on good terms with them. To be otherwise would be to be in contradiction with the spirit of Pope St Pius X.   

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #31 on: May 07, 2019, 05:21:00 PM »
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  • Hey, Poche said in hos post that Pope St Pius X had a "theological disagreement" with a  particular Zionist. 

    It's a disagreement.  You say X, I say Y - who's to say who is right?

    Poche, which theological position is correct?  Catholicism or Judaism?



    Offline poche

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #32 on: May 07, 2019, 07:28:43 PM »
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  • Hey, Poche said in hos post that Pope St Pius X had a "theological disagreement" with a  particular Zionist.

    It's a disagreement.  You say X, I say Y - who's to say who is right?

    Poche, which theological position is correct?  Catholicism or Judaism?
    In this case Pope St Plus X was right. But that being so it doesn't justify gratuitous hatred against the Jews. Pope St Plus said that the Jews were his friends.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #33 on: May 08, 2019, 02:39:20 PM »
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  • In this case Pope St Plus X was right. But that being so it doesn't justify gratuitous hatred against the Jews. Pope St Plus said that the Jews were his friends.
    In this case, Pope St Pius X was right?  
    Poche, let's go back to what I asked but phrased slightly different. 
    Do you think Catholicism is theologically correct or do you think Judaism has the right answers? 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #34 on: May 08, 2019, 09:40:16 PM »
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  • In this case, Pope St Pius X was right?  
    Poche, let's go back to what I asked but phrased slightly different.
    Do you think Catholicism is theologically correct or do you think Judaism has the right answers?
    There is only one answer to that. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #35 on: May 08, 2019, 11:01:54 PM »
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  • There is only one answer to that. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth
    Classic conciliarist speech, poche. 

    Quote
    "though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church...  "some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too... "it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."
    Just answer yes or no. 
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

    Offline poche

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #36 on: May 09, 2019, 02:20:04 AM »
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  • Classic conciliarist speech, poche.
    Just answer yes or no.
    I thought that by saying that the Catholic Church having the platitude of truth that that would be a clear affirmation that the Catholic Church was the true Faith. 
    Anything good coming to us from the Jews would only be in relation to how it corresponds to what is found in the Catholic Church.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #37 on: May 09, 2019, 07:02:21 AM »
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  • I thought that by saying that the Catholic Church having the platitude of truth that that would be a clear affirmation that the Catholic Church was the true Faith.
    Anything good coming to us from the Jews would only be in relation to how it corresponds to what is found in the Catholic Church.
    This is Olympic gold medal-level question dodging, as usual. Yes or no?
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #38 on: May 09, 2019, 07:42:10 AM »
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  • Of course. Catholics should be condemning any and all violence against any group of people — it is not the answer to anything.

    To a point.  Violence perpetrated by individuals without authority should be condemned, but if the state were to impose harsh penalties against various "groups" of people defined by immortal, deviant, heretical, subversive, or otherwise depraved principles, then there's no issue.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #39 on: May 09, 2019, 07:45:41 AM »
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  • I leave the question of who is saved and who is not to God.

    Your leave it to your own private interpretation of God's mind.  I on the other hand go with what the Church has taught that God has revealed about the criteria for salvation.  Whether any particular individual met such criteria, of course, can only be known to God, but this does not mean that we do not know the objective criteria for salvation.  We can know with the certainty of faith that souls who do not meet certain criteria cannot be saved, e.g. if they are in a state of mortal sin, if they lack supernatural faith, if they are outside the Church.  So this answer is always subterfuge.  Based on the fact that we cannot know with certainty whether any souls who's passed away met the criteria, people like you attempt to undermine the actual objective criteria established by God and taught by the Church.  And even in the case of individuals, the clear presumption is that they are lost if they showed no outward indications of ever having met said criteria.  Consequently, the presumption is that the dead Jews are in hell.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #40 on: May 09, 2019, 07:49:06 AM »
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  • It may not be martyrdom in the strict sense, but whenever this type of thing happens, John 15:13 always comes to mind:

    "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    t's not martyrdom in ANY sense.  Without supernatural virtue and sanctifying grace, ANY such virtue can be no more than natural virtue and cannot have supernatural merit.  This is Catholicism 101, my friend, even prescinding from any considerations of "Feeneyism".


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #41 on: May 09, 2019, 07:57:39 AM »
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  • And I didn't say it was. I just meant that I wonder if it still has some expiatory value for the person who dies for someone else because of that text.

    I for one believe that natural virtue can in fact offset some of the temporal (sensible) punishment in hell for those who practice it.  People forget that hell is not a single monolithic place, but admits of varying degrees (this is even taught in one of the dogmatic definitions of EENS).  There are probably (IMO) some people who are in hell, strictly speaking, who approach the natural happiness of a limbo due to their practice of natural virtue, who suffer very little, and may in fact be enjoying the equivalent of the "happy hunting ground".  God is perfectly just and rewards/punishes each accordingly.  One of the greatest pushbacks against the Church dogma of EENS comes from this misconception regarding the nature of hell.  Now, if such a one existed who practiced natural virtue nearly flawlessly, why wouldn't God give them the grace of entering the Church?  Well, #1 it's a grace, and #2 perhaps God knows that if made this offer the person would reject it and in fact end up with a significantly worse eternal fate.  We know also, then, that God is perfectly merciful.  We do not find in hell a virtuous Jewish grandmother who gave her life to save her children standing right next to Joe Staling and burning in the same intensity of flame.  Yet, regardless of how great natural virtue is, it cannot ever merit sanctifying grace and the beatific vision.  No person can merit such a thing, and the privilege belongs only to God and those with whom He wills to share it.  In fact, our natures is INCAPABLE of supporting such a vision, since it is beyond the capabilities of our nature, and that is why the souls in limbo suffer not at all, since they can't even begin to understand what is is they are missing, and the lack of this supernatural vision is not in any way a defect of their nature, nor does it compromise their natural happiness.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #42 on: May 09, 2019, 02:35:36 PM »
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  • Your leave it to your own private interpretation of God's mind.  I on the other hand go with what the Church has taught that God has revealed about the criteria for salvation.  Whether any particular individual met such criteria, of course, can only be known to God, but this does not mean that we do not know the objective criteria for salvation.  We can know with the certainty of faith that souls who do not meet certain criteria cannot be saved, e.g. if they are in a state of mortal sin, if they lack supernatural faith, if they are outside the Church.  So this answer is always subterfuge.  Based on the fact that we cannot know with certainty whether any souls who's passed away met the criteria, people like you attempt to undermine the actual objective criteria established by God and taught by the Church.  And even in the case of individuals, the clear presumption is that they are lost if they showed no outward indications of ever having met said criteria.  Consequently, the presumption is that the dead Jews are in hell.
    Does any serious theologian (I realize Poche is not a theologian) say that people can be saved outside the Church?  or would they just speculate that there are lots and lots of people who are inside the church despite not being visible members?

    Because in the latter case, while I see too much speculation as likely dangerous, that's different than saying its heretical.  But saying someone can be saved outside the Church would be literally heretical.

    Am I missing something?

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #43 on: May 09, 2019, 02:51:05 PM »
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  • Does any serious theologian (I realize Poche is not a theologian) say that people can be saved outside the Church?  or would they just speculate that there are lots and lots of people who are inside the church despite not being visible members?

    Because in the latter case, while I see too much speculation as likely dangerous, that's different than saying its heretical.  But saying someone can be saved outside the Church would be literally heretical.

    Am I missing something?

    ByzCat,
    What I quoted above is from Unitatis Redintegratio


    Quote
    "though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church...  "some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too... "it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."

    Yes, "serious" theologians actually believe this. It's in official Church documents. This document states that God is using heretical and schismatic congregations as means of salvation. Also, stating these assemblies experience a life of grace.

    We know with absolute certitude that in order to be saved you must:
    1) Profess the Catholic Faith whole and entire
    2) Die inside the Church
    3) Die in a state of grace

    Any other speculation is just that, speculation.
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

    Offline poche

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    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #44 on: May 09, 2019, 11:30:16 PM »
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  • ByzCat,
    What I quoted above is from Unitatis Redintegratio


    Yes, "serious" theologians actually believe this. It's in official Church documents. This document states that God is using heretical and schismatic congregations as means of salvation. Also, stating these assemblies experience a life of grace.

    We know with absolute certitude that in order to be saved you must:
    1) Profess the Catholic Faith whole and entire
    2) Die inside the Church
    3) Die in a state of grace

    Any other speculation is just that, speculation.
    From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church


     

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