Author Topic: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked  (Read 2307 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ByzCat3000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1266
  • Reputation: +282/-98
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2019, 12:39:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • The Church has given us the answer to that question numerous times. When the Church makes an infallible definition, we can be sure it is Christ who is speaking.
    I don't know what Poche's line of thought is, but for non-Feenneyites (I'm using Feeneyite here as a descriptor, not an insult) it might be possible to be inside the Church without being a visible member.  Furthermore there's always presumably the possibility of a deathbed conversion, though of course that depends on whether you believe baptism of desire is a thing, I know some people here don't.

    It seems conceivably possible to say what Poche said without denying any dogma.  Whether that is in fact what's going on, or whether Poche is in fact denying dogma, I don't know.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1533
    • Reputation: +619/-747
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #16 on: May 05, 2019, 04:40:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • She died giving her life in place of the rabbi. She followed the example of Christ
    You do realize that this is not martyrdom, don’t you? I'm as certain as one can be that she didn’t have our Lord in mind when she acted. She may have been a nice person who was naturally caring and unselfish, but that doesn’t mean that the act was meritorious. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Disputaciones

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1452
    • Reputation: +393/-165
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #17 on: May 05, 2019, 05:36:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You do realize that this is not martyrdom, don’t you? I'm as certain as one can be that she didn’t have our Lord in mind when she acted. She may have been a nice person who was naturally caring and unselfish, but that doesn’t mean that the act was meritorious.
    It may not be martyrdom in the strict sense, but whenever this type of thing happens, John 15:13 always comes to mind:

    "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1533
    • Reputation: +619/-747
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #18 on: May 05, 2019, 05:57:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It may not be martyrdom in the strict sense, but whenever this type of thing happens, John 15:13 always comes to mind:

    "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
    It’s not martyrdom in the Christian/Catholic sense, period.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Disputaciones

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1452
    • Reputation: +393/-165
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #19 on: May 05, 2019, 06:02:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It’s not martyrdom in the Christian/Catholic sense, period.
    And I didn't say it was. I just meant that I wonder if it still has some expiatory value for the person who dies for someone else because of that text.

    I'm sure this has been addressed before in some theology manual somewhere.


    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 612
    • Reputation: +607/-52
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #20 on: May 05, 2019, 06:52:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Incredibly difficult question.

    For me, this is the clearest, most succinct understanding:

    FR. A. TANQUERY
    Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II - 1945 (1024-1):

    "The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.

    This is certain.

    Explanation:

    a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.

    b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism [implicit or explicit], forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the Unity offers, the obligation remains on
    one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water."


    Additionally:

    It is certain that all who die infused with sanctifying grace are saved (God's grace is not communicated to the reprobates in hell);

    It is certain that sanctifying grace can operate outside the visible Church (e.g., valid baptisms in some sects, etc.);

    It is certain that men can be joined to the Church by sanctifying grace, even though they are not members of the visible Church;

    It is never certain if or whether any particular person has met the requirement of implicit baptism of desire, because making this determination requires knowledge of the internal forum, which is known to God alone.


    Therefore, in the case of the Jewess, was she saved?

    The presumption is that this Jewess died a Jewess, and therefore was damned.

    The possibility is that this Jewess had an at least implicit desire for baptism, but only God can know.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1533
    • Reputation: +619/-747
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #21 on: May 05, 2019, 06:59:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Incredibly difficult question.

    For me, this is the clearest, most succinct understanding:

    FR. A. TANQUERY
    Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II - 1945 (1024-1):

    "The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.

    This is certain.

    Explanation:

    a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.

    b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism [implicit or explicit], forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the Unity offers, the obligation remains on
    one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water."


    Additionally:

    It is certain that all who die infused with sanctifying grace are saved (God's grace is not communicated to the reprobates in hell);

    It is certain that sanctifying grace can operate outside the visible Church (e.g., valid baptisms in some sects, etc.);

    It is certain that men can be joined to the Church by sanctifying grace, even though they are not members of the visible Church;

    It is never certain if or whether any particular person has met the requirement of implicit baptism of desire, because making this determination requires knowledge of the internal forum, which is known to God alone.


    Therefore, in the case of the Jewess, was she saved?

    The presumption is that this Jewess died a Jewess, and therefore was damned.

    The possibility is that this Jewess had an at least implicit desire for baptism, but only God can know.
    Nice post, however I would add the words “very remote” before the word possibility.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 612
    • Reputation: +607/-52
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #22 on: May 05, 2019, 07:05:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nice post, however I would add the words “very remote” before the word possibility.

    Yes, unfortunately, I would have to agree:

    The fidelity to God's laws as known to the invincibly ignorant would have to be accomplished without the aid of the sacraments, making such fidelity exceedingly difficult.

    Heaven knows, such fidelity is difficult enough even with the aid of the sacraments!


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4119
    • Reputation: +2179/-1160
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #23 on: May 05, 2019, 10:39:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I leave the question of who is saved and who is not to God.
    That is non-answer, it is just the cowards way out.

    Here is how a Catholic is commanded to answer the question:

    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4119
    • Reputation: +2179/-1160
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #24 on: May 05, 2019, 10:47:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is my hope that they embraced Our Lord with their last breath.
    There is nothing wrong with this answer in the sense that the writer is praying that the person converted, which is the only way he could be saved, provided that he was unknowingly baptized during his life at some time. It is a well known fact that Catholic nannies would secretly baptize the children of the Jews that they worked for and nurses baptized the sick.

    All of the above is very rare, and always remember that it is God that took that person's life by surprise, with an untimely death. If the person was going to convert, God could have kept them alive for another 50 years if need be. Everyone that is in Hell, had they been allowed to live 1000 years, would have continued in their rejection of Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Mother, and His Church, and even today in Hell, they continue to despise Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Mother, and His Church.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline B USC90

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 60
    • Reputation: +66/-57
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #25 on: May 05, 2019, 11:21:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection. ~ Pope Innocent III

    Well should the Jew mourn who, not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition ... The Jews have crucified the Son and rejected the Holy Ghost, and their souls are the abode of the devil. ~ St. John Chrysostom
    "There is no Catholic God." ~ Ladislaus (CathInfo member agreeing multiple times with Francis the Destroyer)


    Offline alaric

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2247
    • Reputation: +1766/-179
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #26 on: May 05, 2019, 01:20:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    When you use the name of religion to support violence you make us no better than the ISIS terrorists perpetuated it. 
    I didn't use the name of religion, I used the name of a pope. and he used the name of Christ.

    Wars ( violence) have been fought "in the name of religion" since time immemorial. Catholicism has used "violence" throughout the course of the history of the Church, mainly as a defense against heresy, Islam, paganism or the synagogue.

    Even Yahweh in the O.T. commanded the Hebrews to annihilate heathen peoples. a direct order of violence from God Himself.

    Violence, in and of itself is not necessarily evil, but many times employed to destroy an evil.

    I'm sure judaizers like yourself pooch had no problem when the Allies in WWII used violence, many times in the name of religion against the peoples of the German and Japanese nations. Then I assume you would have hardly compared them to ISIS terrorists.

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1199/-4678
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #27 on: May 05, 2019, 11:02:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I didn't use the name of religion, I used the name of a pope. and he used the name of Christ.

    Wars ( violence) have been fought "in the name of religion" since time immemorial. Catholicism has used "violence" throughout the course of the history of the Church, mainly as a defense against heresy, Islam, paganism or the synagogue.

    Even Yahweh in the O.T. commanded the Hebrews to annihilate heathen peoples. a direct order of violence from God Himself.

    Violence, in and of itself is not necessarily evil, but many times employed to destroy an evil.

    I'm sure judaizers like yourself pooch had no problem when the Allies in WWII used violence, many times in the name of religion against the peoples of the German and Japanese nations. Then I assume you would have hardly compared them to ISIS terrorists.
    "And I have always been on good terms with Jews." - Pope St Pius X
    https://ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/primary-texts-from-the-history-of-the-relationship/herzl1904

    Offline B USC90

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 60
    • Reputation: +66/-57
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #28 on: May 06, 2019, 01:04:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote
    "And I have always been on good terms with Jews." - Pope St Pius X
    https://ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/primary-texts-from-the-history-of-the-relationship/herzl1904

    Poche is being deceitful. That quote is taken out of context.

    Pope St. Pius X didn't recognize the Jews because they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.

    "Jews have not recognized Our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people" ~ Pope St. Pius X
    "There is no Catholic God." ~ Ladislaus (CathInfo member agreeing multiple times with Francis the Destroyer)

    Offline JezusDeKoning

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2940
    • Reputation: +1084/-2217
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Prayers for Jewish people who were attacked
    « Reply #29 on: May 06, 2019, 04:43:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Perhaps you should tell past popes of this as well.....


    Snippet from Pope Urban II call to crusade against Muslims in the Holy Land declared at Clermont in 1095;



    "Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.
    I'm going to amend my point to mean things like shooting up someone else's religious temple. That's wrong. There's a justified time and place for things like the Crusades and other conflicts, though.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16