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Author Topic: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD  (Read 1279 times)

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Offline AMDGJMJ

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Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
« on: July 26, 2019, 11:10:22 AM »
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  • Is anyone here interested in going to a CMRI chapel in MD?

    If so, please email me:

    allthroughmary@gmail.com 
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #1 on: July 26, 2019, 01:09:02 PM »
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  • Why would you want to do that?  CMRI promote NFP and, for all intents and purposes, reject the core dogma EENS, the denial of which is behind all the Vatican II errors.


    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #2 on: July 26, 2019, 02:03:52 PM »
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  • Why would you want to do that?  CMRI promote NFP and, for all intents and purposes, reject the core dogma EENS, the denial of which is behind all the Vatican II errors.
    Can you explain? What is NFP? And what do they deny of EENS?
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2019, 02:25:48 PM »
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  • Can you explain? What is NFP? And what do they deny of EENS?
    They promote the exact same version of NFP as the novus ordo.  That a married couple can use nfp, specifically having only marital relations on safe days, and avoiding on unsafe days, and a couple can use this for almost any reason.  Too poor, too many kids already, etc.  By purposefully only having relations on safe days, there is a 99.98% chance of not conceiving a child, it is just as anti life as the pill or condom.  You get to have your fun without children....that is no different then the pill.  
    They deny EENS, namely that non catholics, who don't ever convert, can be saved by invincible ignorance or baptism of desire.  Two terms that were never intended to include non catholics.  Multiple cmri priests say that a Jєω who rejects Christ can be saved, in his state.  The say they believe in EENS, but then deny it repeatedly through modernist double talk.  

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 02:30:54 PM »
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  • You didn’t answer the question.  They asked what is NFP AND EENS?


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 04:31:27 PM »
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  • You didn’t answer the question.  They asked what is NFP AND EENS?
    NFP= Natural Family Planning

    EENS = Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
    (Latin for "Outside the Church there is no salvation)

    If the CMRI have one major thing I don't necessarily agree with, it is that they believed Pope Pius XII was a legitimate pope.  (But, that is another story...)

    As a result of believing that Pope Pius XII was Pope they believe and follow what he taught (since it is a Cathoic Doctrine that "Catholics must be submissive to a true pope in order to be saved").  This includes the NFP "Rhythm Method", the new changes to the Holy Week services, a different interpretation of what the form is for Holy Orders and certain exceptions to who might be saved outside the Physical Church.

    I don't necessarily agree with them in these few matters, yet most traditional Catholic priests out who are not cultish seem to think Pius XII was valid.  So, at least the CMRI are consistent.  

    Some argue that NFP was not possible before modern medicine, and hence was never officially condemned by the Church and that there are examples of Catholic saints who were never officially baptized but who legitimately desired Baptism though were prevented from receiving it before their deaths.  I do not claim to judge such though I have my opinions, and leave such to a future true and good pope to define in the future.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #6 on: July 26, 2019, 05:02:02 PM »
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  • Why wasn't Pius XII a legitimate pope?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #7 on: July 26, 2019, 05:03:46 PM »
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  • They promote the exact same version of NFP as the novus ordo.  That a married couple can use nfp, specifically having only marital relations on safe days, and avoiding on unsafe days, and a couple can use this for almost any reason.  Too poor, too many kids already, etc.  By purposefully only having relations on safe days, there is a 99.98% chance of not conceiving a child, it is just as anti life as the pill or condom.  You get to have your fun without children....that is no different then the pill.  
    They deny EENS, namely that non catholics, who don't ever convert, can be saved by invincible ignorance or baptism of desire.  Two terms that were never intended to include non catholics.  Multiple cmri priests say that a Jєω who rejects Christ can be saved, in his state.  The say they believe in EENS, but then deny it repeatedly through modernist double talk.  
    Lefebvre taught the same. As for NFP, even pre-V2 Popes have taught that. Not saying either are right - but it's a bit hypocritical to condemn CMRI for positions which, in the former, other Trads and, in the latter, pre-V2 Popes also held. 


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #8 on: July 27, 2019, 01:23:38 AM »
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  • Why wasn't Pius XII a legitimate pope?
    There are some, though not many, traditional Catholics (including priests) who see/saw Pius XII as causing perhaps as much trouble and confusion in some of his proclamations as some of the Vatican II Popes.

    Some claims include the NFP topic, his more openess towards other religions, and his changes to the Holy Week and including evening Masses (which the CMRI support because they support him).

    For me the thing which has bothered me was his declaration about the rite for Holy Orders.  According to the Catechism of the Council of Trent (written and published for the faithful to hold and believe by Pope Pius V), tradition and certain Church Councils (can't remember off the top of my head which) the form for a priest to be ordained had 2 parts and powers bestowed "Receive the power to offer Masses and sacrifices for the living and the dead"  and "Receive the Holy Ghost.  Whose sins who forgive they are forgiven them.  Whose sins you retain they are retained."  Yet, Pius X seemingly claimed that the "preface prayer" was the actual form which included nothing about the Mass or right to forgive sins.  This then made way for the novus ordo to throw out the actual form for the sacrament in their new ordinations and have invalid priests.  

    But, anyhow, yeah, another story, one most people wouldn't agree with and nothing much to do with the CMRI. 😉
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #9 on: July 27, 2019, 01:26:05 AM »
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  • Lefebvre taught the same. As for NFP, even pre-V2 Popes have taught that. Not saying either are right - but it's a bit hypocritical to condemn CMRI for positions which, in the former, other Trads and, in the latter, pre-V2 Popes also held.
    Exactly the point I was trying to make!  Thank you. 😊
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #10 on: July 27, 2019, 06:29:18 AM »
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  • This whole Pius XII being an antipope nonsense is honestly a pretty good reductio ad absurdum of Sedevacantism.  I'm usually sympathetic to Sedes, but I think the epistemic basis on which the whole thing is based is extremely problematic.

    I do not by any means claim to be an expert on theology, but it seems way more reasonable to me to just believe that some encyclicals, between Vatican I and Vatican II, exaggerated the prerogatives of the Pope.  This isn't necessarily malicious.  Sometimes children do indeed have to disobey their earthly fathers, however, a good father is not likely to go into all the nuances of when a child is allowed to disobey, because that would be counterproductive and undermines the authority of a parent in normal times.  And I kind of think that's what happened, particularly, with popes Pius IX through Pius XII.  When I read through Sede arguments against "R + R", its occasionally a couple quotes from earlier popes or church fathers, but usually mostly quotes between Vatican I and Vatican II.  And I'm just not convinced there can't be widely held mistakes or errors during *one* period of church history.  The whole, taken together, is infallible, but not just one part (exempting ecunemical councils and ex cathedra pronouncements of course.)

    Admittedly my thinking here likely comes down to how I became Catholic in the first place.  Ultimately it was because I read the early church fathers, and concluded one, that they weren't remotely Protestant, and two, that there is a predominant teaching that we have to stay in communion with the Bishop of Rome and obey his teaching.  And, of course, the whole epistemic problem of "what makes a council" in Eastern Orthodoxy that Forlorn has pointed out multiple times here.  But I guess, in the end, its the first millennium that made me Catholic, not the post Vatican I era (and I do accept the minimal definition that Vatican I actually gives us), and I don't see the period between Vatican I and Vatican II as being in and of itself infallible.

    OK I derailed this thread :D 


    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #11 on: July 27, 2019, 10:30:58 AM »
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  • This whole Pius XII being an antipope nonsense is honestly a pretty good reductio ad absurdum of Sedevacantism.  I'm usually sympathetic to Sedes, but I think the epistemic basis on which the whole thing is based is extremely problematic.

    I do not by any means claim to be an expert on theology, but it seems way more reasonable to me to just believe that some encyclicals, between Vatican I and Vatican II, exaggerated the prerogatives of the Pope.  This isn't necessarily malicious.  Sometimes children do indeed have to disobey their earthly fathers, however, a good father is not likely to go into all the nuances of when a child is allowed to disobey, because that would be counterproductive and undermines the authority of a parent in normal times.  And I kind of think that's what happened, particularly, with popes Pius IX through Pius XII.  When I read through Sede arguments against "R + R", its occasionally a couple quotes from earlier popes or church fathers, but usually mostly quotes between Vatican I and Vatican II.  And I'm just not convinced there can't be widely held mistakes or errors during *one* period of church history.  The whole, taken together, is infallible, but not just one part (exempting ecunemical councils and ex cathedra pronouncements of course.)

    Admittedly my thinking here likely comes down to how I became Catholic in the first place.  Ultimately it was because I read the early church fathers, and concluded one, that they weren't remotely Protestant, and two, that there is a predominant teaching that we have to stay in communion with the Bishop of Rome and obey his teaching.  And, of course, the whole epistemic problem of "what makes a council" in Eastern Orthodoxy that Forlorn has pointed out multiple times here.  But I guess, in the end, its the first millennium that made me Catholic, not the post Vatican I era (and I do accept the minimal definition that Vatican I actually gives us), and I don't see the period between Vatican I and Vatican II as being in and of itself infallible.

    OK I derailed this thread :D
    Can you share what of the church fathers you read? I’m trying to convince a Calvinist to come back home to Catholicism.  
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #12 on: July 27, 2019, 10:54:59 AM »
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  • For me the thing which has bothered me was his declaration about the rite for Holy Orders.  According to the Catechism of the Council of Trent (written and published for the faithful to hold and believe by Pope Pius V), tradition and certain Church Councils (can't remember off the top of my head which) the form for a priest to be ordained had 2 parts and powers bestowed "Receive the power to offer Masses and sacrifices for the living and the dead"  and "Receive the Holy Ghost.  Whose sins who forgive they are forgiven them.  Whose sins you retain they are retained."  Yet, Pius X seemingly claimed that the "preface prayer" was the actual form which included nothing about the Mass or right to forgive sins.  This then made way for the novus ordo to throw out the actual form for the sacrament in their new ordinations and have invalid priests.  

    I am assuming you meant Pius XII, not Pius X here.  
    Where does the Council of Trent lay out the specific form for priestly ordination?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #13 on: July 27, 2019, 12:02:34 PM »
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  • Thanks AMDGJMJ

    I was familiar with the acronym NFP but not EENS.  Thanks for the clarification.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Possible CMRI mission chapel to start in MD
    « Reply #14 on: July 27, 2019, 02:13:16 PM »
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  • CMRI teaches loose/liberal NFP??

    That's a new one to me.

    Mithrandylan: Curious to hear your response to this.  Didn't you co-author a book recently on this subject?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."