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Author Topic: Pope Pius XII  (Read 1301 times)

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Offline poche

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Pope Pius XII
« on: August 02, 2013, 03:03:31 AM »
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  • It says that Pope Francis is thinking about canonising Pope Pius XII without the required certified miracle. How do you feel about that?

    Pope Francis is weighing the possibility of proceeding with the cause for canonization of Pope Pius XII, without waiting for the approval of a miracle, according to a report from the Catholic News Agency (CNA).

    CNA cites an anonymous Vatican official as saying that Pope Francis has great admiration for Pope Pius XII, and could invoke his own authority to move forward with the cause for the wartime Pontiff. Pope Francis has already taken that step to proceed with the canonization of Pope John XXIII.

    A papal decision to speed the cause of Pius XII would undoubtedly draw protests from some Jєωιѕн leaders, who have urged the Vatican not to proceed with the cause until scholars have an opportunity to study the Vatican archives from his pontificate. Those archives might be opened next year.


    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18639


    Offline Pelly

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 04:02:02 AM »
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  • *facepalm*
    The Conciliar Church has became a Saint Factory to seem legitimate.


    Offline poche

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 04:13:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelly
    *facepalm*
    The Conciliar Church has became a Saint Factory to seem legitimate.

    So does that mean that you agree with the Jєωs who feel that Pius XII should not be canonized?

    Offline Eudes

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 05:15:25 AM »
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  • CatholicCulture really edited too much out of that article. The CNA version is better

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-thinking-about-declaring-pius-xii-a-saint/



    Quote

    Vatican City, Jul 31, 2013 / 11:05 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis is considering whether he will make Pope Pius XII a saint, in the same way that he approved the cause of John XXIII.
     
    A source who works at the Vatican’s Congregation for Causes of Saints, who asked for anonymity, told CNA July 25 that “just as Pope Francis moved ahead with John XXIII’s canonization, he is considering the same thing for Pius XII.”

    According to the normal procedures, Pius XII would be beatified once a miracle attributed to his intercession is officially certified by a team of doctors and recognized by a commission of cardinals.

    But if Pope Francis decides to go ahead without a miracle, he could “even canonize him with the formula of scientia certa (certainty in knowledge), thereby jumping over the step of beatification,” the source said.

    “Only the Pope is able to do it, and he will, if he wants to.”

    Pope Francis is very interested in Pius XII because “he considers him ‘a great,’ in the same way as John XXIII is, even if for different reasons,” the source explained.

    But there is also a historical reason that Pope Francis is interested in Pius XII.

    When Pope Paul VI started the beatification and canonization process in 1967, nine years after Pius XII’s death, he formed a committee of historians to conduct an in-depth study of his predecessor’s life and behavior, giving particular attention to the events of World War II.

    The committee was made up of four Jesuits: Fathers Pierre Blet (France), Angelo Martini (Italy), Burkhart Schneider (Germany), and Robert A. Graham (United States).

    Their work led to the publication of “Actes et Docuмents du Saint Siège relatifs à la Seconde Guerre Mondiale” (Acts and Docuмents of the Holy See related to the Second World War), an 11-volume collection of docuмents from the Vatican’s Secret Archive about Pius XII’s papacy during that tumultuous time.

    Yet, the remainder of the docuмents from Pius XII’s papacy is not expected to be released until 2014 – the time it will take to organize the papers.

    The completed catalog will include approximately 16 million docuмents from Pius XII's papacy (1939-1958).

    Pope Benedict XVI initially decided to postpone Pius XII's cause for sainthood and advocated waiting until the archives would be open for researchers in 2014.

    But Benedict changed his mind and declared Pius XII Venerable on Dec. 19, 2009, based on the recommendation of the committee investigating his cause.

    The decision was met with criticism from some Jєωιѕн quarters, which charged that Pius XII was silent about the h0Ɩ0cαųst and did not do enough to resist the Germans.

    Despite the conclusions of the committee, the debate that followed the initial criticism brought Pius XII’s canonization process to a halt.

    According to Matteo Luigi Napolitano, a member of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Science who wrote several books about Pius XII, “for what concerns the historical judgment, the dossier on Pius XII is almost complete.”

    Napolitano added in his July 29 interview with CNA, “theological judgments on Pius XII’s life and behavior” are “not competence of the historians.”

    His remarks referred to what is known as a “positio,” a docuмent that is compiled for every person being considered for canonization, after they have been declared “venerable” – the second step in the process.

    The study is comprised of two parts: the first deals with the history of the person and is sketched by a commission of historians, while the second contains a  “theological judgment” on the life and works of venerable, which is handed down by a theological committee.

    At the moment, according to the source from the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, Pope Francis has said he wants Pius XII’s cause to move ahead.

    Since there are several miracles attributed to Pius XII’s intercession, the source explained that Pope Francis might decide that he will sidestep the normal process and declare him a saint.

    “It is not impossible that the Pope would act in the way he did for the canonization of John XXIII.”

    When Pope Francis decided to approve the canonization of John XXIII, he submitted his case to a vote by the members of the congregation, despite the fact that “a miracle attributed to the intercession of John XXIII was discussed,” the source said.

    But “the miracle would have needed further checks,” the saints expert explained, so Pope Francis “opted to canonize him without waiting for the certification of the miracle.”

    The source maintained, “this seems to be possible for what concerns Pius XII.”

    Matteo Luigi Napolitano acknowledged that the possibility of the Pope pushing the cause forward. There are “several (saints) causes that, for several reasons, are the object of pressures,” he remarked.

    What remains to be seen is whether Pius XII being declared a saint will result in a new debate about the emerging historical record of the wartime Pope or a recycling of the claims that he was “Hitler’s Pope.”

    Napolitano noted, “the debate about Pius XII is more widely a debate about the Shoah, i.e. the biggest tragedy of the Second World War.”

    So, Napolitano said, “it is normal to investigate what the Vatican did during that period.”

    This investigation involves several areas of interest: the choice of the Holy See to remain neutral, the way Christian values were lived during that period, the choices of Catholics who confronted the tactics of the nαzιs, and what dioceses and clergy in countries involved in the war did.

    Napolitano underlined that “the ‘positio’ on Pius XII is made up of all of these aspects, with a collection of sources that agreed the Congregation for the Causes of Saint should carry their job forward.”
     
    For what concerns a historical judgment of Pius XII's behavior, “interpretations can vary, but I can say that the most authoritative Jєωιѕн, Catholic and lay historians agree on one key point: Eugenio Pacelli never was, and he never could be, ‘Hitler’s Pope.’”


    "The most evident mark of God's anger, and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world, is manifest when He permits His people to fall into the hands of a clergy who are more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of raveni

    Offline jlamos

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 02:38:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: Pelly
    *facepalm*
    The Conciliar Church has became a Saint Factory to seem legitimate.

    So does that mean that you agree with the Jєωs who feel that Pius XII should not be canonized?


    Pelly said not one thing regarding the suitability of canonization of Pope Pius XII nor anything about Jєωs. You are fishing with rotten bait.

    That being said, the issue isn't the suitability of the canonized (so-called), but the total lack of authority of the would be canonizers.

    You sir (madam?) are a trout, and a smelly one at that. And by trout I mean troll. And I am responding to a troll's post, which means that I'm an idiot.

    Bah!


    Offline jlamos

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 02:40:25 PM »
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  • I don't just mix my metaphors, I tie them up into tight little knots.

    Offline poche

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 10:54:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: jlamos
    Quote from: poche
    Quote from: Pelly
    *facepalm*
    The Conciliar Church has became a Saint Factory to seem legitimate.

    So does that mean that you agree with the Jєωs who feel that Pius XII should not be canonized?


    Pelly said not one thing regarding the suitability of canonization of Pope Pius XII nor anything about Jєωs. You are fishing with rotten bait.

    That being said, the issue isn't the suitability of the canonized (so-called), but the total lack of authority of the would be canonizers.

    You sir (madam?) are a trout, and a smelly one at that. And by trout I mean troll. And I am responding to a troll's post, which means that I'm an idiot.

    Bah!

    Not true, I am just asking the question. If Pelly feels that it would be inappropriate to canonize Pius XII then she would be in agreement with the Jєωs who also feel that Pius XII should not be canonized. She may have different reasons but the same idea. I was just asking for clarification.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 11:04:08 PM »
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  • Not sure why it never clicked before, but when Eudes linked to that picture of His Holiness Pius XII, I realized F Abram Murray bears a striking resemblance to him.  I guess if Mel Gibson ever decides to make a movie about this Pontiff of fine memory, we know who he'll cast:





    As to the OP, I hope the conciliar Church doesn't canonize him.  I think Casual Frank, over time, can do a lot of good for Catholics on the fence about where they belong.  The canonization of Pius XII is not a bone that those Catholics need to be thrown.  I worry that if Francis canonizes Pius XII, Michael Voris might just canonize Francis.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline jlamos

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 11:56:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Not true, I am just asking the question. If Pelly feels that it would be inappropriate to canonize Pius XII then she would be in agreement with the Jєωs who also feel that Pius XII should not be canonized. She may have different reasons but the same idea. I was just asking for clarification.


    Pelly never said that she (please correct me if I'm wrong) didn't think Pope Pius XII should be canonized. She simply made a comment about the Coniliarists using their false canonizations to appear legitimate.

    If she does agree with the Jєωs then she is free to say so. As yet, she has made no such statement. You are inferring something that hasn't been said.

    Also, we feel emotions and think thoughts. We do not feel thoughts.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 11:58:19 PM »
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  • I hope someday that the cause of canonization Pope Pius XII will be looked into by a Pope.  Fake "popes" don't count.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Eudes

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 10:18:12 AM »
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  • Mundabor had some interesting thoughts on this

    http://mundabor.wordpress.com/2013/08/01/timeo-danaos-et-dona-ferentes/

    Quote from: Mundabor


    “I fear the Greeks, even when they bear gifts” is the literal translation of the brilliant Virgil’s verse.

    In our case, the Trojan Horse we must pay attention to is the allegedly ventilated canonisation of Pope Pius XII.

    Having read about Padre Pio’s hours-long vision of our beloved Pastor Angelicus in heaven the day that great Pope died, I would not be among those who cry scandal and heresy if such a decision were to be taken. Canonisations are infallible anyway, so one has to either believe the Sea is vacant or believe they are true.

    I would, in fact, be overjoyed; not because of the news that Pius XII is in heaven – Padre Pio had no doubts, and this is good enough for me every day of the week – but because of the obvious repercussions within the Church. At first sight, this appears a great gift made to conservative Catholics and, clearly, to us Traditionalists.

    On the other hand, I offer the following reflections:

    I fear an ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity-condoning, liturgy-massacring, heresy-flirting, sodomite-buddying, humbleness-professing, canon-law trampling Jesuit even when he bears gifts. Actually, I fear him particularly when he bears gift.[/color]


    WOW, just wow.
    Tell us what you really think Mundabor

    Quote

    You can call it mistrust if you want to. I call it life experience, and sound reasoning.

    I also wonder whether this rumour has not been started – by the Bishop of Rome, or someone near to him – to persuade the growing phalanx of well awake Catholics to tone done the criticism a bit. If you behave, Uncle Jorge will give you a chocolate cookie.[/color] If not… He will have to get rid of Summorum Pontificuм, and it will be all your fault, you naughty boys…

    Thirdly, I wonder whether this might not be the novocaine the dentist gives to the patient before he starts to get to work in earnest. Imagine a total or substantial killing of Summorum Pontificuм coupled with the announcement of the canonisation.

    What now, skipper?

    Anyway, relata refero. It might be all rubbish, or it might be the Bishop is thinking of a Beatification.

    We will have to wait and see how this pans out.

    In the meantime, I will continue to fear the Greeks.

    Mandabor

    "The most evident mark of God's anger, and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world, is manifest when He permits His people to fall into the hands of a clergy who are more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of raveni


    Offline roscoe

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    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 03:49:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    It says that Pope Francis is thinking about canonising Pope Pius XII without the required certified miracle. How do you feel about that?

    Pope Francis is weighing the possibility of proceeding with the cause for canonization of Pope Pius XII, without waiting for the approval of a miracle, according to a report from the Catholic News Agency (CNA).

    CNA cites an anonymous Vatican official as saying that Pope Francis has great admiration for Pope Pius XII, and could invoke his own authority to move forward with the cause for the wartime Pontiff. Pope Francis has already taken that step to proceed with the canonization of Pope John XXIII.

    A papal decision to speed the cause of Pius XII would undoubtedly draw protests from some Jєωιѕн leaders, who have urged the Vatican not to proceed with the cause until scholars have an opportunity to study the Vatican archives from his pontificate. Those archives might be opened next year.


    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18639


    The anti-pope Francis has no authority to do anything.  :reporter:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'