Author Topic: Pope Pius V, Liturgy of 1570 (Read 3624 times)

Fatima1917 · « **on:** November 18, 2015, 11:42:14 AM »

Does anyone know if there are any Priests, who use Pope Pius Vth Liturgy of 1570?

In the Texas, specifically the San Antonio area?

catholicunity · « **Reply #1 on:** November 18, 2015, 11:50:29 AM »

Quote from: Fatima1917

Does anyone know if there are any Priests, who use Pope Pius Vth Liturgy of 1570?

In the Texas, specifically the San Antonio area?

Are looking for ...?

MaterDominici · « **Reply #2 on:** November 18, 2015, 09:06:31 PM »

Pius V codified the Tridentine Mass in 1570. Adjustments were made to this missal as early as 1604.

To think there is a priest anywhere who uses the 1570 version is a little crazy, but specifying a geographic region is ridiculous.

Since I'm in the area, I can tell you that there are no priests here which use anything prior to the 1962 missal unless you're willing to travel at least 2 hours for a *slightly* older variety.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #3 on:** November 18, 2015, 09:25:34 PM »

Quote from: Fatima1917

Does anyone know if there are any Priests, who use Pope Pius Vth Liturgy of 1570?

In the Texas, specifically the San Antonio area?

Quote from: MaterDominici

Pius V codified the Tridentine Mass in 1570. Adjustments were made to this missal as early as 1604.

To think there is a priest anywhere who uses the 1570 version is a little crazy, but specifying a geographic region is ridiculous.

Since I'm in the area, I can tell you that there are no priests here which use anything prior to the 1962 missal unless you're willing to travel at least 2 hours for a *slightly* older variety.

The Pius V liturgy is identical to the Roman Catholic Mass that was in use until Pius XII introduced changes in Holy Week and John XXIII introduced St. Joseph to the Canon. Even after St. Joseph was added, I heard priests in Catechism class emphatically teach that the Canon was "untouchable." That was the universal thought even while John XXIII dared to touch the untouchable.

I was present when a traditional Catholic priest used a 1572 missal for Mass, and he said it was nearly identical to the 1955 altar missal, even including the Quo Primum inside the front cover. He only had to add a few prayers from the Propers that had been composed since that time, you know, new Feast Days and the like. The Canon and other parts were the same.

"But when was it printed?" you may ask. It was printed in 1572. It belongs to a friend who has a rare book collection.

The good priest has since passed away. You might remember him in your prayers this month, the Month of the Holy Souls. His name was Fr. Nicholas Gruner.

.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #4 on:** November 18, 2015, 09:26:20 PM »

It would be illicit and gravely sinful to use the 1570 liturgy, as this was replaced many times over with new missals over the centuries, with strict penalties/excommunication attached. The last revised missal was in 1962 by Pope John XXIII. Anyone who uses a missal before or after this one would commit a sin of disobedience against Church law.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #5 on:** November 18, 2015, 09:30:43 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

It would be illicit and gravely sinful to use the 1570 liturgy, as this was replaced many times over with new missals over the centuries, with strict penalties/excommunication attached. The last revised missal was in 1962 by Pope John XXIII. Anyone who uses a missal before or after this one would commit a sin of disobedience against Church law.

That is utterly false. Learn something before you make a fool of yourself.

.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #6 on:** November 18, 2015, 09:30:44 PM »

Before my post starts a fight...I am not suggesting that anyone who uses the 1957 missal is wrong. I'm just saying that, if you accept that the 1962 missal is the most recent revised edition, then you would have to use that, since it replaced the 57 one. Some say the 1957 missal is the the latest and that the 1962 wasn't promulgated properly. I have no idea. But it's one of these 2. Nothing before could be used.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #7 on:** November 18, 2015, 10:01:24 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Before my post starts a fight...I am not suggesting that anyone who uses the 1957 missal is wrong. I'm just saying that, if you accept that the 1962 missal is the most recent revised edition, then you would have to use that, since it replaced the 57 one. Some say the 1957 missal is the the latest and that the 1962 wasn't promulgated properly. I have no idea. But it's one of these 2. Nothing before could be used.

You are uninformed.

There is utterly nothing wrong with using the 1570 missal.

Perhaps you have never read Quo Primum, which is arguably infallible.

Learn something and read it.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2015, 11:12:37 PM »

The 1570 missal and liturgy no longer exist, properly speaking. Plus V revised his own missal a short time after Quo Primum and it has been revised 5-6 times since then. If you want to argue that the 1570 missal is essentially the same as the 1957/62 missal, I totally agree, but to say that one can use a missal that has been legally revised is not accurate. Whenever the Popes revised the missal or liturgy, they forbade the use of the old books, because the point of the revision is to ensure unity of the liturgy everywhere. While the 1570 missal may be essentially the same as what is used today, there are still enough differences to cause issues. Thats why they cant be used.

JezusDeKoning · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2015, 11:50:19 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

It would be illicit and gravely sinful to use the 1570 liturgy, as this was replaced many times over with new missals over the centuries, with strict penalties/excommunication attached. The last revised missal was in 1962 by Pope John XXIII. Anyone who uses a missal before or after this one would commit a sin of disobedience against Church law.

Priests, namely ones that do not recognize JXXIII as a valid pope, use earlier ones sometimes, though. I believe St. Gertrude the Great uses at least the 1950/55 Missal to avoid the Holy Week changes.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2015, 12:10:37 AM »

Considering the current Church crisis, which missal is used is up to the traditional group, and it should not be held against those who choose to use a particular missal at this time. The last acceptable version is indeed that of 1962, even though it does not have as much as compared to the pre-1955 missals. When things are restored in the Church, this issue will finally be addressed authoritatively. I remember learning that the SSPX even was more easygoing in its early history about which missal to use. I think even the 1965 rite may have been used at Econe. I know from a talk of Bishop Sanborn and/or Fr. Cekada that the U.S. SSPX priests used the pre-1955 missal and that France used the 1962 missal until Archbishop Lefebvre imposed the 1962 missal on the SSPX in 1983 because of dealings with Rome. I also learned from an article and a talk of Msgr. Perez that later on Archbishop Lefebvre had contemplated imposing the pre-1955 missal on the SSPX after the 1988 consecrations, but he died before doing anything about it. I must admit though that I would say also that the pre-1955 missal is much richer than that of 1962 aside from just the Holy Week rite differences. Three collects were usually said on Sundays, more vigils and octaves were celebrated, the older classification scheme of feasts was preserved, and certain specifically Roman feasts are not found in the 1962 missal, although Pius XII had kept them in his missal reform, which I believe the CMRI uses. Now after 1962, it is downhill especially from then on. The 1965 rite was more of a transitional form, even more so than those earlier reforms of Pius XII. It was a lesser organic form of the Roman rite. Then after that I think many here already know what happened in 1969.

Peter15and1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2015, 02:46:03 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

The Pius V liturgy is identical to the Roman Catholic Mass that was in use until Pius XII introduced changes in Holy Week and John XXIII introduced St. Joseph to the Canon.

This is not correct. Several revisions were made to the Roman Missal between 1570 and 1955. Admittedly, these revisions were very minor compared to Pius XII's Holy Weeks changes, but there were changes made nonetheless, so it would be inaccurate to say that that Mass in use up to 1955 was "identical" to the 1570 Mass.

For example:

Clement VIII made revisions to the Missal in 1604.

Urban VIII made further revisions in 1634.

Leo XIII made further, very minor, revisions in 1884.

Benedict XV made major revisions in 1914 based on Pius X's revisions to the Breviary in 1911.

Additionally, new feasts were added to the Missal over the centuries, and existing feasts' ranks and names were changed periodically. To be clear, all of these changes were quite modest compared to Pius XII's Holy Week revisions, and were nothing compared to the Novus Ordo, but, nevertheless, changes were made over the centuries, and the Missal in use in 1954 was not "identical" to the the 1570 Missal.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2015, 03:35:41 PM »

Please produce here one example of how the Canon from 1570 was changed in any of the later "revisions" you cite, up to and including 1955.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2015, 06:20:07 PM »

Theres more to a missal than just the Canon. If you want to know the changes, Google the docuмents; they're all out on the web.

HiddenServant · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2015, 08:43:24 PM »

I thought the 1962 version was up to date at the time
it was released, if not i will try for a better version.