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Poll

What is your position on the status of Pope Francis?

Conclavist Sedevacantist - He is not the Pope, because _____ is the Pope!
Sedevacantist - He is not the Pope; the Catholic Church currently has no Pope.
Sede-privationist, Sede-impeditist, Sede-doubtist, etc. - something in between.
Recognize and Resist - He is Pope, but I will not obey when he goes against Faith or steps outside his authority.
I just don't know or I have my doubts.
He is most certainly the Pope, as certainly as Jesus Christ is God.
OTHER - (e.g., Pope Benedict is still Pope)
Siri Thesis - Card. Siri was elected & maybe appointed a successor

Author Topic: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope  (Read 6155 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2018, 06:33:16 PM »
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  • I happen to really like Louie Verrecchio even though I do not agree with him.

    Unfortunately the problem with most Resignationists/those who think Benedict is the true pope is that they completely miss the boat on Vatican II (although this is not true of Verrecchio).  They miss the boat that the real issue is Vatican II and therefore the real issue involves all of the post-Vatican II popes, not just Francis.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #31 on: April 27, 2018, 07:03:17 PM »
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  • The Saint Louis Catholic blog conducted a similar poll last September.

    Pope vs. Antipope: Dissecting the Poll


    "Therefore I put up a poll last week asking readers just to give their opinion: Who do you really think is pope, and why? Even allowing for the undeniable traditionalist (or as others rightly point out, Catholic) bent of the blog, the results surprised me.

    I think many are saying, "Hey, I'm either not crazy or else most of us are, but I think Benedict is still pope!"  And of those, most cite the ineffectiveness of the putative abdication or some combination of factors including also allegations of heresy, invalid election, deposition, or mistake of fact.

    No, this is definitely not a scientific poll. Votes were limited only by platform, and a person with multiple devices could theoretically vote more than once. Yet there were 674 votes, and a sample of 500 in a scientific poll would yield a +/- of 5%. No, it was not a random sample. Yes, most respondents would be considered traditional Catholics or "conservative" Catholics-- but then again, the poll was intended for Catholics only. I don't consider the editorial board of NCR or America to be Catholic.

    But even considering the limitations, the results are, I believe, quite significant:

    WHICH BEST DESCRIBES YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE CURRENT POPE?

    Francis is Pope                      16%
    Benedict is Pope                    72%
    Some other person is Pope      1%
    No one is Pope                        9%


    IF YOU CHOSE ANY ANSWER IN POLL ABOVE THAT INDICATES FRANCIS IS NOT POPE, WHY DO YOU THINK SO?

    Benedict's abdication was not effective         38%
    Francis' election was invalid                            5%
    Francis has lost his office due to heresy          4%
    Some combination of the above                     42%
    Neither Francis nor Benedict was ever pope    8%

    Out of 674 votes, a staggering 490 said that in their opinion, Benedict XVI is still Pope. That's 72% of those who voted. But who cares if it were "only" half? It boggles the mind.

    Of those, the plurality focused on the ineffectiveness of the putative abdication. Meaning, either he never intended to resign; he wrote his resignation in a legally ineffective way; he made a mistake in fact by not intending to resign the whole office; or that he was coerced such that it was truly involuntary.

    Even allowing for the readership's "style" of Catholicism (for which Francis does not care), even allowing for some multiple votes-- the least that can be said is that hundreds of Catholics who found this poll on this blog have the opinion that Benedict XVI is still Pope and that the guy the world and most of the self-identified Catholics of the world hail as pope is in fact NOT THE POPE. Ann Barnhardt cited this for the notion that such persons should not feel isolated, weird or crazy-- that there are others.  True, but I ask you to consider this: When was the last time in history (not including obvious interregnum periods) that at least 400 Catholics at any one time were not certain who the Pope was? It's unprecedented-- unless the sedes are right. And I don't believe they are.

    This uncertainty, in addition to the maladies arising from personnel, policies and persecutions-- this uncertainty by and of itself-- is a chastisement from God. A chastisement that only the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart can alleviate.

    There are perhaps practical solutions. Perhaps a true public correction/declaration of deposition would solve the problem of the current occupant. But it would not lift a cloud over the next conclave unless that declaration of deposition leads Benedict to claim the mantle that may still be his, or else prove that he did (or now would) freely and effectively resign, explaining away the coercive indicators from the last such time."

    http://stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/2017/09/pope-vs-antipope-dissecting-poll.html
    .
    For a first-time poster, your contribution is more impressive than any others I've seen in the past.
    .
    Your poll and its results are noteworthy. However, I have a different outlook.
    It seems to me rather ironic that Catholics would be so eager to welcome Benedict XVI back as if he's somehow a better option.
    During the Evil Council, erstwhile Fr. Joseph Ratzinger was a prime mover of the unclean spirit of Vat.II and its evil.
    If it were not for him and his fellow piriti, like Rahner, Schillebeeckx, Congar, Murray, etc., we wouldn't have had an evil council.
    .
    One of the most ominous and dangerous blights on the history of the Church is Benedict XVI's "hermeneutic of continuity."
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    If ever there were a preference for the lesser of two evils, this is it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #32 on: April 27, 2018, 07:18:52 PM »
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  • It seems to me rather ironic that Catholics would be so eager to welcome Benedict XVI back as if he's somehow a better option.

    Indeed, he's a WORSE option, since he can more readily convince people that he's orthodox.  But there's no heresy that Father Kramer imputes to Jorge Bergoglio that Ratzinger didn't hold to first.  He's got a file about a mile long if laid out from end to end.  Ratzinger, however, offers Mass (Novus Ordo) in Latin, gives sermons in Latin, issued the Motu, etc. ... so shallow Traditionalists who are only worried about liturgical matters don't recognize that he's promoted some wildly-heretical ideas throughout his life.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #33 on: April 27, 2018, 07:20:36 PM »
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  • I actually believe it.  I think, among the "conservative" and indult-type Novus Ordites, most who believe Francis is not pope do in fact believe Benedict is still pope.  It will be interesting to see what these folks will say when Benedict finally kicks the bucket.
    Since Father Paul Kramer has distributed his views about Benedict still being pope on the Servants of Jesus and Mary mailing list, most likely more people are agreeing with his analysis month by month. Note that Fr. Paul's persuasive writings have been distributed not just once, but many times.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #34 on: April 27, 2018, 07:30:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: forlorn on Yesterday at 11:49:05 AM
    Quote
    who said that lmao
    [^ post that has been deleted ^]

    LOL, that's Amakusa.  He claims that a demon told an exorcist that Paul VI was still alive (must be around 130 by now) and that he would return to reclaim his office and end the crisis.  Taking no account of the fact that Montini very much caused said crisis.  Perhaps then he repented of his ways and re-converted (according to sedeprivationism, he would then resume being formally the pope).

    Hey, we could come up with a scenario that includes ALL of the above positions.  That might be fun.
    .
    When October arrives, read about it again, and think it over. There could be more than one way of "returning."
    .
    I ran into a cult that believed with their whole ascent of mind and will that Paul VI had been replaced with a double, sometime in the late 1960's -- as I recall they thought it was before the Novus Ordo came out so they thought the new mass was therefore a fraud. They said you could see it in before-and-after photos because the new guy's ear lobes were longer in later photographs, while it is common knowledge that ear lobe length doesn't change overnight, they claimed.
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    Not so sure about that.............
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    ......................................................... 
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    Quote
    Taking no account of the fact that Montini very much caused said crisis. 
    .
    I agree. But for the cult I described above, it was the SECOND Montini, the DOUBLE who they think caused it, and so, if the FIRST Montini - that is, the REAL Montini - the REAL Pope Paul VI were to "return" they would think that's a good thing.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #35 on: April 27, 2018, 07:33:25 PM »
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  • Well, some of the Montini-double "evidence" I've found to intriguing ... especially the voice print analysis.  And my gut instinct from just looking at some of the different pictures is that there could very well have been 2 men posing as Montini over the years.  But who knows why.  Montini was a known Communist sympathizer (agent?) long before his election ... so not sure why they would have needed a double.  But, would I put anything past the Jєωs/Masons/Illuminati?  Nope.






    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #36 on: April 27, 2018, 07:46:48 PM »
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  • Indeed, he's a WORSE option, since he can more readily convince people that he's orthodox.  But there's no heresy that Father Kramer imputes to Jorge Bergoglio that Ratzinger didn't hold to first.  He's got a file about a mile long if laid out from end to end.  Ratzinger, however, offers Mass (Novus Ordo) in Latin, gives sermons in Latin, issued the Motu, etc. ... so shallow Traditionalists who are only worried about liturgical matters don't recognize that he's promoted some wildly-heretical ideas throughout his life.
    .
    Wildly heretical ideas the foremost of which is that extra ecclesiam nulla salus means just the opposite of what it says.
    .
    And we can thank him and his associates for that, associates not excluding one Cardinal who died 10 years before Vat.II began, Francesco Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani (d. Jan 13th, 1951), erstwhile secretary of the Holy Office.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #37 on: April 27, 2018, 08:48:11 PM »
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  • I happen to really like Louie Verrecchio even though I do not agree with him.

    Unfortunately the problem with most Resignationists/those who think Benedict is the true pope is that they completely miss the boat on Vatican II (although this is not true of Verrecchio).  They miss the boat that the real issue is Vatican II and therefore the real issue involves all of the post-Vatican II popes, not just Francis.
    I agree but to save myself all the stress of worrying about the past popes (even those of us raised in the SSPX in our 30s only remember JP2) I just focus on the here and now. If this Bergoglio guy is the pope, I don't know, but it seems unlikely.  I don't say he isn't, but I don't see how he could be. Verrechio and others ain't bad guys. We have to remember that they're living through  the post-conciliar crisis with the rest of us.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #38 on: April 28, 2018, 03:06:49 AM »
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  • Well, some of the Montini-double "evidence" I've found to intriguing ... especially the voice print analysis.  And my gut instinct from just looking at some of the different pictures is that there could very well have been 2 men posing as Montini over the years.  But who knows why.  Montini was a known Communist sympathizer (agent?) long before his election ... so not sure why they would have needed a double.  But, would I put anything past the Jєωs/Masons/Illuminati?  Nope.





    That pic also supposes he was swapped AFTER Vatican 2 and the promulgation of the New Mass. So damage already done by the "real" Montini. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #39 on: April 28, 2018, 08:40:23 AM »
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  • I voted R & R.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #40 on: April 28, 2018, 10:50:26 AM »
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  • It's baffling how few people have voted. It takes two seconds, there's an "I don't know" option, and who voted for what is not publicly visible. What are people afraid of?


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #41 on: April 28, 2018, 12:19:25 PM »
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  • Wouldn't "I just don't know or I have my doubts."  be along the lines of "Sede-privationist, Sede-impeditist, Sede-doubtist, etc. - something in between." ? If yes, then it seems there are almost more essentially privationists than others who voted in the poll.

    It can also be argued the many R&Rs are essentially privationist except for the semantics they use to profess their beliefs. Therefore, there are certainly more privationists that actually admitted.

    Go back to page 1 and actually read the thread before asking questions. For all you know, I already answered that question!

    In this particular case, I certainly did.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/poll-personal-position-on-the-pope/msg605869/#msg605869
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #42 on: April 28, 2018, 07:40:50 PM »
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  • I voted R & R.
    .
    Ironically, if you consider what the entire Automotive Industry means when they say "R & R," this would say that you're in favor of removing Francis and replacing him with someone else.
    .
    (Work order reads, "R & R brake shoes" means remove existing brake shoes and install replacement brake shoes.)
    (Although in Auto Shop classroom work, this could be to remove the shoes, show the instructor, and put the same ones back in place.)
    .
    If it were the MILITARY meaning, R & R refers to rest and relaxation.
    .
    Where is the alligator when you need him?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #43 on: April 29, 2018, 08:23:09 AM »
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  • I agree but to save myself all the stress of worrying about the past popes (even those of us raised in the SSPX in our 30s only remember JP2) I just focus on the here and now. If this Bergoglio guy is the pope, I don't know, but it seems unlikely.  I don't say he isn't, but I don't see how he could be. Verrechio and others ain't bad guys. We have to remember that they're living through  the post-conciliar crisis with the rest of us.
    You might be interested in the latest from Louie V:
    https://akacatholic.com/consequences/
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #44 on: April 29, 2018, 11:57:16 AM »
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  • It's interesting that almost half of the respondents say they are either sede or don't know the status of the pope (possible sede-in-waiting).  

    That is much higher than I expected, especially for the I-don't-know crowd.