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Poll

What is your position on the status of Pope Francis?

Conclavist Sedevacantist - He is not the Pope, because _____ is the Pope!
Sedevacantist - He is not the Pope; the Catholic Church currently has no Pope.
Sede-privationist, Sede-impeditist, Sede-doubtist, etc. - something in between.
Recognize and Resist - He is Pope, but I will not obey when he goes against Faith or steps outside his authority.
I just don't know or I have my doubts.
He is most certainly the Pope, as certainly as Jesus Christ is God.
OTHER - (e.g., Pope Benedict is still Pope)
Siri Thesis - Card. Siri was elected & maybe appointed a successor

Author Topic: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope  (Read 6150 times)

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Offline nottambula

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Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2018, 08:28:20 AM »
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  • The Saint Louis Catholic blog conducted a similar poll last September. 

    Pope vs. Antipope: Dissecting the Poll


    "Therefore I put up a poll last week asking readers just to give their opinion: Who do you really think is pope, and why? Even allowing for the undeniable traditionalist (or as others rightly point out, Catholic) bent of the blog, the results surprised me.

    I think many are saying, "Hey, I'm either not crazy or else most of us are, but I think Benedict is still pope!"  And of those, most cite the ineffectiveness of the putative abdication or some combination of factors including also allegations of heresy, invalid election, deposition, or mistake of fact.

    No, this is definitely not a scientific poll. Votes were limited only by platform, and a person with multiple devices could theoretically vote more than once. Yet there were 674 votes, and a sample of 500 in a scientific poll would yield a +/- of 5%. No, it was not a random sample. Yes, most respondents would be considered traditional Catholics or "conservative" Catholics-- but then again, the poll was intended for Catholics only. I don't consider the editorial board of NCR or America to be Catholic.

    But even considering the limitations, the results are, I believe, quite significant:

    WHICH BEST DESCRIBES YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE CURRENT POPE?

    Francis is Pope                      16%
    Benedict is Pope                    72%
    Some other person is Pope      1%
    No one is Pope                        9%


    IF YOU CHOSE ANY ANSWER IN POLL ABOVE THAT INDICATES FRANCIS IS NOT POPE, WHY DO YOU THINK SO?

    Benedict's abdication was not effective         38% 
    Francis' election was invalid                            5% 
    Francis has lost his office due to heresy          4% 
    Some combination of the above                     42%
    Neither Francis nor Benedict was ever pope    8%

    Out of 674 votes, a staggering 490 said that in their opinion, Benedict XVI is still Pope. That's 72% of those who voted. But who cares if it were "only" half? It boggles the mind.

    Of those, the plurality focused on the ineffectiveness of the putative abdication. Meaning, either he never intended to resign; he wrote his resignation in a legally ineffective way; he made a mistake in fact by not intending to resign the whole office; or that he was coerced such that it was truly involuntary.

    Even allowing for the readership's "style" of Catholicism (for which Francis does not care), even allowing for some multiple votes-- the least that can be said is that hundreds of Catholics who found this poll on this blog have the opinion that Benedict XVI is still Pope and that the guy the world and most of the self-identified Catholics of the world hail as pope is in fact NOT THE POPE. Ann Barnhardt cited this for the notion that such persons should not feel isolated, weird or crazy-- that there are others.  True, but I ask you to consider this: When was the last time in history (not including obvious interregnum periods) that at least 400 Catholics at any one time were not certain who the Pope was? It's unprecedented-- unless the sedes are right. And I don't believe they are.

    This uncertainty, in addition to the maladies arising from personnel, policies and persecutions-- this uncertainty by and of itself-- is a chastisement from God. A chastisement that only the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart can alleviate.

    There are perhaps practical solutions. Perhaps a true public correction/declaration of deposition would solve the problem of the current occupant. But it would not lift a cloud over the next conclave unless that declaration of deposition leads Benedict to claim the mantle that may still be his, or else prove that he did (or now would) freely and effectively resign, explaining away the coercive indicators from the last such time."

    http://stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/2017/09/pope-vs-antipope-dissecting-poll.html
    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson


    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    "TL;DR"/Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #16 on: April 27, 2018, 02:00:45 PM »
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  • TL;DR: You can always merge categories later.  You can't split them out later.  Being specific is good, because you never know what details a future reader is going to be interested in.

    Indeed!

    The corresponding practice of splitting in software-design and programming is also highly advisable [†].  Perhaps Matthew's experiences in that field are what evoked his strong feelings expressed in this poll topic.

    The dogmatic refusal to provide more than, e.g., 5 choices in a poll or menu at any 1 time, claiming justification by citing results from some psychology-Ph.D.'s "cognition" research, is a stupidly artificial limitation on readers that often produces confusing complications for users [××].

    -------
    Note †: A technical issue known as atomicity.  E.g.: When a programmer needs only a separate date or a separate time--not both--yet he's limited to--i.e., stuck with--a programming interface that combines both values, so he's required to do extra work to extract only the one he needs.  It's also extra work for the thousands of other programmers on other projects who need the same separate things from the same interface.  And no, don't even think of arguing that such programmers really ought to prefer the combination instead of its aforementioned components.

    Note ××: E.g., Microsoft Windows' habitual isolation of menu items for accomplishing perfectly ordinary tasks into artificially extra "advanced" menus.


    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #17 on: April 27, 2018, 02:29:54 PM »
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  • We’re up to 74, come on folks don’t be shy, vote early and vote often😁  Surely we can do better than the 600 mentioned in the post below. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #18 on: April 27, 2018, 02:32:55 PM »
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  • We’re up to 74, come on folks don’t be shy, vote early and vote often😁  Surely we can do better than the 600 mentioned in the post below.
    That has to be a mainstream or perhaps "conservative" Catholic blog. To get those kind of numbers, you have to go well beyond the kind of serious Trads you find on CathInfo.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #19 on: April 27, 2018, 03:01:50 PM »
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  • That has to be a mainstream or perhaps "conservative" Catholic blog. To get those kind of numbers, you have to go well beyond the kind of serious Trads you find on CathInfo.
    72% of them voted Benedict was still Pope. That's roughly 485 people. I didn't realise there were that many people on the planet who held that view. I thought it was just Father Kramer and a handful of others. 


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #20 on: April 27, 2018, 03:03:14 PM »
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  • 72% of them voted Benedict was still Pope. That's roughly 485 people. I didn't realise there were that many people on the planet who held that view. I thought it was just Father Kramer and a handful of others.
    Did you catch the other detail?
    They said that it was only limited by IP address, so you could vote as many times as you could snag another IP address (Tor, proxy, mobile, work, home, etc.)
    So it's a pretty worthless poll.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #21 on: April 27, 2018, 03:08:13 PM »
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  • Did you catch the other detail?
    They said that it was only limited by IP address, so you could vote as many times as you could snag another IP address (Tor, proxy, mobile, work, home, etc.)
    So it's a pretty worthless poll.
    True enough, I think some Benedictist must've voted many times, because unless it's a blog specifically for people who believe Benedict's still Pope(and the excerpt suggested it wasn't). 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #22 on: April 27, 2018, 03:09:17 PM »
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  • 72% of them voted Benedict was still Pope. That's roughly 485 people. I didn't realise there were that many people on the planet who held that view. I thought it was just Father Kramer and a handful of others.
    I actually believe it.  I think, among the "conservative" and indult-type Novus Ordites, most who believe Francis is not pope do in fact believe Benedict is still pope.  It will be interesting to see what these folks will say when Benedict finally kicks the bucket.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #23 on: April 27, 2018, 03:24:17 PM »
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  • I actually believe it.  I think, among the "conservative" and indult-type Novus Ordites, most who believe Francis is not pope do in fact believe Benedict is still pope.  It will be interesting to see what these folks will say when Benedict finally kicks the bucket.
    What would happen if Francis kicks the bucket before Benedict?
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #24 on: April 27, 2018, 03:28:17 PM »
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  • What would happen if Francis kicks the bucket before Benedict?
    That's a good question too.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #25 on: April 27, 2018, 03:41:53 PM »
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  • What would happen if Francis kicks the bucket before Benedict?
    Don't think it'd change their stance on Benedict's secret Papacy. I wonder what they believe would happen if Francis died, a new Pope was elected, and THEN Benedict died. Would that Pope be valid in their eyes? Probably not. But would his successor? 


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #26 on: April 27, 2018, 04:03:54 PM »
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  • I am not sure. There is no doubt that Francis is a heretic; even the stupidest of people could figure this out. At the same time, I'm not sure how to approach the nearly six-decade long interregnum if sedevacantism is the answer. That seems like an unusually long time to not have the pope.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #27 on: April 27, 2018, 04:09:23 PM »
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  • I am not sure. There is no doubt that Francis is a heretic; even the stupidest of people could figure this out. At the same time, I'm not sure how to approach the nearly six-decade long interregnum if sedevacantism is the answer. That seems like an unusually long time to not have the pope.
    We're caught between two impossibilities - that the Church could have 60 years of heretical/borderline heretical possibly masonic Popes, or that the Church could have 60 years with no Pope. This is why, although I disagree with it, I can understand why R&R is safe middleground, cautioning against two risky extremes.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #28 on: April 27, 2018, 05:11:57 PM »
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  • Don't think it'd change their stance on Benedict's secret Papacy. I wonder what they believe would happen if Francis died, a new Pope was elected, and THEN Benedict died. Would that Pope be valid in their eyes? Probably not. But would his successor?
    I think if Francis' successor is another Benedict....say Burke or Sarah, then these folks will suddenly forget about Benedict's "forced" resignation and consider Benedict XVII a true pope.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: POLL - Personal Position on the Pope
    « Reply #29 on: April 27, 2018, 05:52:27 PM »
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  • Even guys that support Bishop Fellay, like Louie Verrechio, don't believe that Francis is Pope. The whole Benedict/resignationist thing is much much bigger than what people see at first look, as in there are many more people who believe it is likely. And what is most interesting is that they are spread out in many groups (SSPX/Resistance/Ecclesia Dei/ Diocesan).

    For anyone with time to watch a 15 minute video, it's worth it.

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...