Author Topic: Please pray for Tom Nelson  (Read 1776 times)

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Offline Maria Regina

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Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2020, 12:40:28 PM »
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  • Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

    Save and protect Tom Nelson.

    O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us.
    O Lord, blot out our sins.
    O Master, pardon our iniquities.
    O Most Holy One, come and visit our infirmities,
    and save our souls, O Good One.
    Lord have mercy.

    Online SeanJohnson

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #16 on: January 14, 2020, 12:57:11 PM »
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  • With all due respect, 2020 is not 1967. It was a different time then.

    Tom Nelson starts an independent chapel in the early 70's, and all faithful Traditional Catholics come to his chapel, creating a flourishing parish of sorts. 110 parishioners at its peak -- 2 Masses every Sunday.

    Those who would become Pfeifferites if given a chance, those who would be SSPX if given a chance, those who lean Sedevacantist, those who would support Bishop Williamson and the Resistance if given a chance -- ALL OF THE ABOVE. They all came together and made a flourishing parish. 3 different kids' Catechism classes every Sunday, daily Mass, etc.

    Today, Tom Nelson's grand-nephew starts an independent chapel, and almost 7 years later the parishioners still number in the low 20's -- counting his own family of 10. The SSPX is 45 minutes away, and most are content to stay there. Some Trads in the area are sedevacantist, home-aloner, and/or Pfeifferite, and so they stay aloof and never attend. There is an Indult Mass in both San Antonio AND Austin, which further sucks away a bunch of other would-be parishioners.

    I should point out: Tom Nelson's own chapel went down to about 20 people once the Institute of Christ the King came to Rockford, IL in the mid-90's. The Conciliar Church gave them a nice beautiful (pre-Vatican II style) CHURCH -- not a chapel -- to use for the Tridentine Mass, located in the center of downtown. They fixed it up, sold pizza kits and put tens of thousands of dollars into stained glass, and basically they have been playing 1950's parish ("What Crisis in the Church?") for the past 25 years. They have their Latin Mass, an occasional pro-life Rosary or other pro-life action, and they're good. The Crisis is over, as far as that crowd is concerned.

    I could say the same thing about a Catholic book publisher. eBooks and the Internet didn't exist back in 1967 when TAN Books was founded. There were no other Trad Catholic publishers: no Ignatius, Sophia, Lepanto, Angelus Press, or any others. TAN was it. There were no archive websites with hundreds of free public-domain Catholic books available for download in PDF or other ebook formats.

    If I tried to create a TAN Books clone today, it wouldn't succeed.

    Bishop Williamson tends to agree, which is why he hasn't started a "Society of St. Pius X II". Times have changed. 2020 is not 1970.

    My point: history doesn't repeat itself. It rhymes, it shifts, it takes things to the next level -- but you'll never see things oscillate like an oscillator circuit, completely repeating the same thing over and over. It's always a little different this go-round.

    When you grasp this basic point, you are very close to grasping the full truth about God, the world, and everything.

    For example, in 1970, if a healthy man couldn't make a living he was probably lazy. But it turns out that there were 10X as many jobs open to high-school drop outs compared with 2020. And if you had a High School diploma, MOST jobs were open to you. So it would be a mistake to judge a young man today by 1970's standards. Again, times have changed and this must be taken into account.

    This response, addressed to me, does not actually address any points I raised.

    You seem to be addressing the idea that trad initiatives of 2020 are not meeting with the same success they met with in 1967.

    But what I am noting is the absence of trad initiatives altogether (successful or unsuccessful).

    Between worldliness and fatalism, they produce a malaise which makes one contented with the status quo (or a resignation to make the best of the situation), and the result is apathy.

    People are sitting on their couches, playing on Cathinfo, hoping someone else will step up (if they even hope this any longer), but they do nothing, good or bad.

    The lukewarm 98% have been vomited, and it doesn’t seem so bad after all.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #17 on: January 14, 2020, 01:04:35 PM »
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  • I disagree that we should waste our time and resources on venture(s) that aren't prudent, or doomed-to-fail.

    Anyone, Catholic or not, should do at least rough calculations on the back of an envelope to make sure an idea COULD WORK or not. When you can't make the numbers work, by an order of magnitude (10x) or more, you don't undertake the venture.

    Luke chapter 14:
    [28] For which of you having a mind to build a tower, doth not first sit down, and reckon the charges that are necessary, whether he have wherewithal to finish it: [29] Lest, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that see it begin to mock him, [30] Saying: This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
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    Online SeanJohnson

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #18 on: January 14, 2020, 01:16:46 PM »
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  • I disagree that we should waste our time and resources on venture(s) that aren't prudent, or doomed-to-fail.

    Anyone, Catholic or not, should do at least rough calculations on the back of an envelope to make sure an idea COULD WORK or not. When you can't make the numbers work, by an order of magnitude (10x) or more, you don't undertake the venture.

    Luke chapter 14:
    [28] For which of you having a mind to build a tower, doth not first sit down, and reckon the charges that are necessary, whether he have wherewithal to finish it: [29] Lest, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that see it begin to mock him, [30] Saying: This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

    Where did I suggest that we should waste time and money on imprudent ventures?

    Are you suggesting Resistance Catholic Action (of whatever sort) is a priori an imprudent waste?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #19 on: January 14, 2020, 01:21:28 PM »
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  • Where did I suggest that we should waste time and money on imprudent ventures?

    Are you suggesting Resistance Catholic Action (of whatever sort) is a priori an imprudent waste?

    Well, most of those on your list became prominent as a result of writing and publishing books or newspapers, so I think that the reference is to a similar type of venture.  You can't survive as a physical book (or newspaper/newsletter) publisher anymore.


    Online SeanJohnson

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #20 on: January 14, 2020, 01:31:22 PM »
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  • Well, most of those on your list became prominent as a result of writing and publishing books or newspapers, so I think that the reference is to a similar type of venture.  You can't survive as a physical book (or newspaper/newsletter) publisher anymore.

    Understood.

    But surely, there are productive channels for Vatholic Action in 2020?

    Surely Catholic Action itself has not become obsolete?

    And surely the success or failure of Catholic Action is not to be judged solely in terms of profitability?

    I recall TAN Books being in and out of bankruptcy more than once.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #21 on: January 14, 2020, 02:13:45 PM »
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  • Yes, God judges based on effort, not results.

    That having been said, action AND results are better. Or at least acting with the *hope* of results.

    Let me put it another way.

    The devil might have tried everything to stop it, but a missile (full of speed/fervor/destructive potential) is racing towards his HQ with devastating potential.
    What will he try to do now? He will at least try to redirect it, so that it deals a minimal amount of damage to his kingdom. He will try to steer it off course so that it lands in an empty field.

    The devil's first choice, of course, would be that we turn out wicked, apathetic, etc. so the missile never gets built, or explodes on the launchpad. But once it is fully manufactured (becomes a strong, fervent Catholic) and is launched, and all his anti-missile defenses fail to shoot it down, what else can the devil possibly do? He can only throw it off course.

    Enter Prudence, the queen of all virtues.

    I have made the same superficial observation as you. But recall the famous episode from the lives of the saints (I forgot which one), where God revealed that the holiest person was some pious old married lady. Keep in mind that marriage is not considered the highest vocation, or the quickest way to serve God most perfectly! The holiest person wasn't one of the priests, or one of the religious sisters who were plentiful in the area. The answer to the question was a *complete nobody* serving God, to a near-perfect degree, in complete obscurity.

    Just perhaps it is as heroic today to (oh, I don't know) start a Catholic family with the willingness to accept all the children God sends, in a modern-day Sodom where keeping one's children unspotted from this world, and having lots of children, are the only "sins" left to condemn. One's very life would be a constant sermon of contradiction with the world. Such a course would seem to require all sorts of virtues: fortitude, hard work, trust in God, charity, prudence, humility, you name it.

    Who, besides God, can step in and prove otherwise?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #22 on: January 14, 2020, 02:20:06 PM »
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  • Understood.

    But surely, there are productive channels for Vatholic Action in 2020?

    Surely Catholic Action itself has not become obsolete?

    And surely the success or failure of Catholic Action is not to be judged solely in terms of profitability?

    I recall TAN Books being in and out of bankruptcy more than once.
    The question is, where are we at today in 2020.
    Are we down to a small remnant of soldiers, outnumbered 10,000 to 1?
    If so, our prudent course of action is going to be DIFFERENT than what we would do if both sides were equally matched.
    You can't criticize 100 soldiers holed up in the Alamo, waging a valiant defense, for failing to conquer Texas and all of Mexico!
    At a certain point, songs will be sung about you *if you manage to survive* or even just put up a valiant defense.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #23 on: January 14, 2020, 03:31:54 PM »
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  • I will pray.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #24 on: January 14, 2020, 03:49:59 PM »
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  • Quote
    But surely, there are productive channels for Catholic Action in 2020?
    Surely there are.  But, as Matthew pointed out, the times are different now than in the 70s.  In the 70s, the audience for Catholic Action were the millions of good novus ordo-ites who were confused with V2, many of whom were open to the Truth.  Today, with the growth of the indult and the growing-modernization of the new-sspx, most people have "chosen sides" and are content (i.e. this is the 98% who are apathetic). 
    .
    So, who is the audience in 2020?  Either the 98% of apathy or the 2% who passionately care about the Faith.  For me, i'd rather deal with the 2% and help those people be strong catholics, and to help them raise their families.  If done correctly, in a few decades that 2% will turn into 10% of strong catholics (maybe more). 
    .
    There is also the possibility of reaching out to conservative protestants (25 yrs and less) who are converting to the novus ordo at very increased levels. 
    .
    Or there's the possibility of simply looking for the "2%" at your local chapel and helping there.  A lot of Catholic Action is going on, but it may not be publicized.  Not all Catholic Action is externally focused (i.e. websites, newspapers, book writing).  With the dwindling population of many chapels, with the future aging of the baby boomer generations, taking care of one's chapel is going to require more time/money in the near future.  Sometimes simply cleaning your chapel or mowing the grass, or helping the school is what's required nowadays. 

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #25 on: January 15, 2020, 01:03:18 AM »
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  • How broad are you looking for your "doers"? I see a good number of Catholic "doers" out there. Are you excluding everyone who isn't Resistance?

    Tom Nelson himself had to cater a bit toward the larger audience of NO attendees rather than the more limited group of TLM attendees. He was criticized for putting notes in his books where Church rules had changed post-VII.


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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #26 on: January 15, 2020, 02:58:43 AM »
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  • How broad are you looking for your "doers"? I see a good number of Catholic "doers" out there. Are you excluding everyone who isn't Resistance?

    Tom Nelson himself had to cater a bit toward the larger audience of NO attendees rather than the more limited group of TLM attendees. He was criticized for putting notes in his books where Church rules had changed post-VII.


    -------------------
    (5000th post -- certainly there should be a prize or something for that, right?)
    You should rise to the level of HERO on your 6000th post.

    Can Mods be heros?

    By the way, how is Mr. Nelson doing? In the eyes of many, he is a hero.
    Lord have mercy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #27 on: January 15, 2020, 05:27:03 AM »
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  • (5000th post -- certainly there should be a prize or something for that, right?)

    poche has over 15,000.

    Online SeanJohnson

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #28 on: January 15, 2020, 07:48:16 AM »
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  • How broad are you looking for your "doers"? I see a good number of Catholic "doers" out there. Are you excluding everyone who isn't Resistance?

    Tom Nelson himself had to cater a bit toward the larger audience of NO attendees rather than the more limited group of TLM attendees. He was criticized for putting notes in his books where Church rules had changed post-VII.


    -------------------
    (5000th post -- certainly there should be a prize or something for that, right?)

    Yes, I have no interest in tradcumenism or tradpluralism (liberalism).

    If I did, I would just content myself with the SSPX, and float merrily down the stream.

    I’m looking for Resistance doers.

    Do you know any?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Please pray for Tom Nelson
    « Reply #29 on: January 15, 2020, 08:17:32 AM »
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  • Yes, I have no interest in tradcumenism or tradpluralism (liberalism).

    If I did, I would just content myself with the SSPX, and float merrily down the stream.

    I’m looking for Resistance doers.

    Do you know any?

    Those in the Resistance are lucky to find a place to attend Mass once a month. And they are a very small remnant. What do you exact them to "do" exactly, besides survive and keep their children Catholic?

    Maybe all their free time is used up because going to Mass on Sunday takes so much longer (either because they have a long one-way trip to Mass, or they are hosting the Mass and it's a several day preparation/cleaning event)

    My wife pointed out that all of the "doers" you listed were authors. Not just wordsmiths, but old-fashioned BOOK and MAGAZINE authors. A bit biased there, Mr. twice-published author? ;)

    But as for books and magazines -- this is 2020. Ask Hugh Akins how well the magazine business is doing. Mail order, catalogs, magazines, newspapers, phonebooks -- I consider those things all quaint reminders of my childhood in the 80's. But they are, frankly, all obsolete today. And books are going that way very quickly. I am selling very few Chant CDs these days as well. People want downloadable MP3s now.

    If Michael Davies had been born in 1990, I think he would have started a blog or vblog instead of writing books like he did in this universe. How else do you reach the majority of people today? People don't buy books anymore.
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