Cathinfo, please help me.  Please.  

I showed my Protestant friend the dialogue between Cardinal Pell and Dawkins (if you haven't heard of it, the debate was terrible.  I refer you to the Remnant for further reading.  Pell failed.  Big fail.)

My Protestant friend said/asked the following.  My answer is very important, because it could mean a breakthrough for his line of thought.  Please help me get this right, guys.

I'm terrible at apologetics, convincing folks to accept the Church, etc.




Well, I read it. So what recourse does a Catholic like you have when a leader is a heretic? Can't you appeal to the Vatican for his removal? Anything at all?


According to Pell, it seems that no one has to believe anything to get to heaven. Just be "good". I have a question about what you mean when you mentioned SSPX excommunication; What is the significance of an SSPX Mass being "in communion with the Church"? If the church itself is a Godless collection of heretics what's the value of being in communion with them?

Well, I read it. So what recourse does a Catholic like you have when a leader is a heretic?

In past times, wait for the Vatican to remove them from office and excommunicate them. Today, simply ignore them and pray.


Can't you appeal to the Vatican for his removal? Anything at all?

I don't think that you could really appeal for his removal, but you could send a letter to Rome with evidence of his heresy, and ask that Rome please deal with it.


According to Pell, it seems that no one has to believe anything to get to heaven. Just be "good".


I don't think he necessarily said that. He was simply trying to fit vast amounts of Catholic theology into a sentence, and obviously failed and created scandal. It would be my interpretation that what he meant when he said "an atheist can get to heaven certainly" is that there is the possibility from invincible ignorance (even though the chances of that are almost naught).

But, if he did indeed mean/say that "no one has to believe anything to get to heaven, just be 'good'", that is of course heresy. Countless Popes, Councils and Church doctors have taught otherwise.


I have a question about what you mean when you mentioned SSPX excommunication; What is the significance of an SSPX Mass being "in communion with the Church"?

They already are in communion with Rome, there never was a schism. Rome has confirmed that time and time again. The current problem is simply that the SSPX is currently not a 'regular' society, and thus have been given no faculties. This is called, in what it seems post-Vatican II terminology, "not in full Communion".

If the church itself is a Godless collection of heretics what's the value of being in communion with them?

They're not all heretics. The value of being in communion with Rome is that you are part of the visible mystical body of Christ, the Church, headed by the Pope outside of which no one can be saved. The amount of heretics that are in that Church is really irrelevant, what matters is being part of that Church that Christ died for.



Hope I helped,

TT.

Cathinfo, please help me.  Please.  

I showed my Protestant friend the dialogue between Cardinal Pell and Dawkins (if you haven't heard of it, the debate was terrible.  I refer you to the Remnant for further reading.  Pell failed.  Big fail.)

My Protestant friend said/asked the following.  My answer is very important, because it could mean a breakthrough for his line of thought.  Please help me get this right, guys.

I'm terrible at apologetics, convincing folks to accept the Church, etc.




Well, I read it. So what recourse does a Catholic like you have when a leader is a heretic? Can't you appeal to the Vatican for his removal? Anything at all?


According to Pell, it seems that no one has to believe anything to get to heaven. Just be "good". I have a question about what you mean when you mentioned SSPX excommunication; What is the significance of an SSPX Mass being "in communion with the Church"? If the church itself is a Godless collection of heretics what's the value of being in communion with them?

The Church Consists of the Church Triumphant - The Church Suffering and the Church Militant.

Triumphant = in Heaven

Suffering = in Purgatory

Militant = The Faithful on Earth.

Since this particular Heresy is currently affecting the Hierarchy - Obedience is in the Apostolic Bishops who adhere to Traditional Catholic Orthodoxy in Holy Orders and thus can lawfully dispense the Holy Sacraments.

The Church Triumphant is already victorious - the Church Suffering is Victorious as well but not sanctified due to Sin - the Church Militant must persevere and remain in union with the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering.

If the visible hierarchy is not in union with the Church Triumphant - then there is no reason to be in union with them - Divine Law dictates the Salvation of Souls as the Supreme Law of the Church.

Remaining in Comunuion with Tradition and with the Church Triumphant and Church Suffering , therefore , is more important than claiming to be in union with heretics - be they Modernist , Protestants , Jєωs , Muslims, Hindus or Pagans.

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I have a question about what you mean when you mentioned SSPX excommunication; What is the significance of an SSPX Mass being "in communion with the Church"? If the church itself is a Godless collection of heretics what's the value of being in communion with them?


That's not the Catholic Church, that's the counterfeit church. As long as you are in line with the Catholic Church, that is what matters.

The last part may be difficult for your friend to understand, so you will have to be very patient with him on that.

Actually, in my dialogues with protestants, they understand that the counterfeit church in Rome has deviated from the faith better than  some Catholics do.

The Orthodox as well