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Author Topic: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative  (Read 3100 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 04:52:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: roscoe on November 07, 2019, 04:44:22 PM
    Pius XII defended Fr Feeney in the Encyclical Humani Generis--

    Not very clearly.  He needed to be much more explicit and firm.  Some of Father Feeney's enemies read HG as an endorsement of THEIR views.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 05:47:26 PM »
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    • In the middle of war, in a life or death situation, context is everything.  I’d have to see the docuмent before I would charge the pope with an outright lie or forgery.  That’s a grave charge. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #17 on: November 07, 2019, 07:12:26 PM »
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    • Where is the evidence that Pius XII authorized forged baptismal certificates?  The fact that others created them, does not implicate the pope.  The fact that he didn’t call up the nαzιs and say: “Hey guys, there’s some Catholics in your country who are creating fake baptismal certificates.  Just wanted you to know.”  I’m sure he didn’t directly approve of such acts.  The fact that they happened are not his fault (we must assume, unless can be proven otherwise).
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #18 on: November 07, 2019, 08:08:07 PM »
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    • I have only heard the claim made. I have not read the first-hand docuмents. So perhaps it is not true. But I did not hear the claim first from Mrs. Martinez who uses it to indict him. I first heard it from Pope Pius XII's defenders. Upon accusations of him being "Hitler's Pope" supposedly the Vatican's archives from the World War II period were opened up and his defenders claimed that the Pope did everything possible to save Jєωs including the forging of docuмents and the hiding of them in monasteries and convents, etc. And this was used to defend the Pope. In those articles it was not suggested that lying and forgery were sins, it was just assumed that anything done to help a Jєω was good. So I am not sure to what extent Pope Pius XII was aware of everything done in his name.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 10:35:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 07, 2019, 12:48:00 PM
    I think that you do not think at all.

    see https://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/Today-in-History-Pope-Pius-refused-to-support-a-Jєωιѕн-Jerusalem-442696

    "We are unable to favor this [Zionist] movement. We cannot prevent the Jєωs from going to Jerusalem, but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore, we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people.... If you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with priests and churches to baptize all of you". (Pope St. Pius X)
    In that same interview he also said, "I have always been on good terms with Jєωs." This is a direct contradiction to everything that the nαzι movement was was all about.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 10:50:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2019, 03:35:46 PM
    THIS^^^.  He was undoubtedly one of the worst legitimate popes in history.  He was the watershed that led directly to Vatican II.

    1) opened the door to evolution
    2) opened the door to NFP as Catholic birth control
    3) started the first ecuмenical meetings
    4) enabled Bugnini to begin his liturgical experimentations
    5) did not defend Father Feeney against Cardinal Cushing's heresy, and so failed to defend EENS dogma, which led to Vatican II.  He had the opportunity to stand up for and reaffirm EENS in a way that would have precluded Vatican II
    6) appointed, during his long reign, the vast majority of bishops who would later bring us Vatican II
    Actually Pope Pius X presided over an ecuмenical meeting when he had that interview with Herzl.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #21 on: November 08, 2019, 05:39:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on November 07, 2019, 08:08:07 PM
    I have only heard the claim made. I have not read the first-hand docuмents. So perhaps it is not true. But I did not hear the claim first from Mrs. Martinez who uses it to indict him. I first heard it from Pope Pius XII's defenders. Upon accusations of him being "Hitler's Pope" supposedly the Vatican's archives from the World War II period were opened up and his defenders claimed that the Pope did everything possible to save Jєωs including the forging of docuмents and the hiding of them in monasteries and convents, etc. And this was used to defend the Pope. In those articles it was not suggested that lying and forgery were sins, it was just assumed that anything done to help a Jєω was good. So I am not sure to what extent Pope Pius XII was aware of everything done in his name.
    It does not take much inquiry to see that he was the head of the whole effort. THAT is what the Pope Pius XII's defenders concluded and have been publishing since the Vatican archives were made public. To conclude the contrary, one would have to say that the Vatican totally lied.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #22 on: November 08, 2019, 05:44:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on November 07, 2019, 10:35:53 PM
    In that same interview he also said, "I have always been on good terms with Jєωs." This is a direct contradiction to everything that the nαzι movement was was all about.
    Pope St. Pius X saying he is on good terms with the Jєωs does not equate with Pius XII's falsifying baptisms. The nαzι's have nothing to do with my comments. The Jєωs did not/do not consider that Puis X was on good terms with them, didn't you read my Jerusalem Post link? https://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/Today-in-History-Pope-Pius-refused-to-support-a-Jєωιѕн-Jerusalem-442696

    Pope St. Pius X considered that he was on good terms because he was speaking the truth to them. He was honest. That is why he is a saint.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #23 on: November 08, 2019, 10:30:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2019, 03:29:29 PM
    Roncalli was an interesting character.  He didn't care for Bugnini and shut him down, kicked him out of the Vatican ... after Pius XII had enabled him to experiment with the Mass.  I think that Roncalli liked the Traditional Mass for its aesthetics.
    It does make me wonder - was John XXIII even that bad a pope? I always assumed so because of the circuмstances of his election and his convocation of Vatican 2, but come to think of it I don't know of any particular things he did that were bad for the Church. He did call for Vatican 2, but it was barely open when he died and it seems to me that most of the innovations and talk of ecuмenism came after Paul VI took charge. Perhaps Vatican 2 would've taken a different course under John for all I know, but that's the thing - I don't. So I'm wondering if someone here could give a breakdown of the good and bad things he did in his pontificate. 
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    Online roscoe

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #24 on: November 08, 2019, 11:17:38 AM »
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    • It seems Roncalli was FMason. In case you haven't heard, the sect is condemned by Pope Leo XIII in the Encyclical Humanum Genus. :cheers:
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #25 on: November 08, 2019, 11:33:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2019, 03:29:29 PM
    Roncalli was an interesting character.  He didn't care for Bugnini and shut him down, kicked him out of the Vatican ... after Pius XII had enabled him to experiment with the Mass.  I think that Roncalli liked the Traditional Mass for its aesthetics.
    A broken clock is 100% correct twice a day. 
    Rat poison is 99% nutritious food.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #26 on: November 08, 2019, 02:36:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: roscoe on November 08, 2019, 11:17:38 AM
    It seems Roncalli was FMason. In case you haven't heard, the sect is condemned by Pope Leo XIII in the Encyclical Humanum Genus. :cheers:
    Are you sedevacantist?
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    Offline Sigismund

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #27 on: November 08, 2019, 02:52:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: tdrev123 on November 06, 2019, 08:34:13 PM
    https://codoh.com/library/docuмent/2452/?lang=en

    This old article was written by Mary Ball Martinez.  I knew before about how Pius XII was trying to help the Christ killers and he favored the allies, but the details are disturbing.  Martinez shows how Roncalli was not on board with Pius XII dissent and betrayal of Catholics.
    Saving Jєωs from dying and opposing the nαzιs Makes Pius XII bad?  You are a malevolent fool. 
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    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #28 on: November 08, 2019, 02:59:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Sigismund on November 08, 2019, 02:52:37 PM
    Saving Jєωs from dying and opposing the nαzιs Makes Pius XII bad?  You are a malevolent fool.

    Well, you could put it both ways as there were two sides to World War II and both committed great evils. You could just as truthfully say he was handing half of Europe over to the Godless Communists who killed millions of Christians and persecuted the Church causing millions more to leave the faith.
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    Offline Sigismund

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    Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative
    « Reply #29 on: November 08, 2019, 04:44:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on November 08, 2019, 02:59:39 PM
    Well, you could put it both ways as there were two sides to World War II and both committed great evils. You could just as truthfully say he was handing half of Europe over to the Godless Communists who killed millions of Christians and persecuted the Church causing millions more to leave the faith.
    All of Europe would have been swallowed up by the nαzιs. Perhaps much of the rest of the world as well.  However, that is only one problem with the OP.  Suggesting that The Pope saving lives, any lives, is somehow evil is at best stupid, and more likely malicious.  Hence malevolent fool. 
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    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir
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