Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?  (Read 792 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ByzCat3000

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 432
  • Reputation: +90/-29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 07:06:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have questions then. Do the angels protect the particles as well during the Novus Ordo Masses, or even Black Masses, so that Our Lord is defended from sacrilegious hands even then? So that the swine think they are desecrating Our Lord but they are mistaken because he remains forever unsoiled and purer than virginal snow? But if you say that, is sacrilege even possible then? Is it all in the intention because God can never be wounded, even by our sins? But he was wounded on Calvary when he died for our sins?
    I don't think his logic demands that conclusion though.  There seems to be a difference in nature between deliberate desecration, or even culpable negligence, and just God protecting us from needing to do the impossible.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17593
    • Reputation: +9869/-4293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #16 on: August 12, 2019, 07:34:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't think his logic demands that conclusion though.  There seems to be a difference in nature between deliberate desecration, or even culpable negligence, and just God protecting us from needing to do the impossible.

    Yes.  This was the position of pre-Vatican II canonists Noldin and Schmitt, that God would take care of matters on that level.

    For whatever reason, God sometimes allows desecration of the Blessed Sacrament.


    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 432
    • Reputation: +90/-29
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #17 on: August 12, 2019, 07:47:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes.  This was the position of pre-Vatican II canonists Noldin and Schmitt, that God would take care of matters on that level.

    For whatever reason, God sometimes allows desecration of the Blessed Sacrament.
    Even if I don't know exactly why, I think I can make some sense of it.

    In a similar way as Hell, the ability to intentionally (or through gross negligence) desecrate the Blessed Sacrament seems like a logical consequence of free will.  Not that God *has* to allow this, by any means.  But its comparable to the Problem of Evil in a way, and just like evil is allowed (in the same sense you're talking about).

    That's diifferent than allowing "desecration" for literally no purpose at all just 'cause of tiny, microscopic specks that can't be seen

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7239
    • Reputation: +2028/-196
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #18 on: August 12, 2019, 09:08:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Masses in America were held in secret locations from farm fields, factories, private homes while priest dodged bullets while traveling in disguise.  
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14808
    • Reputation: +672/-2341
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #19 on: August 12, 2019, 10:52:29 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
    They used a portable altar. And they had the appropriate dispensations from their ordinary.  


    Offline confederate catholic

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 487
    • Reputation: +184/-22
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #20 on: August 13, 2019, 06:19:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Antimensions used in the varying Byzantine rites and Tablithos (which have no relics) used by Oriental Churches are issued by the Bishop who ordains you they essentially are considered the altar. They're issued once to the priest whose name is on it (occasionally a priest may have a second antimension, never a second tablitho to be used when the priest has two churches to say liturgy in). The antimension or tablitho must be returned to the bishop upon the death of the priest. How chaplains or anyone else has one is basically a theft of a sacred object since the dead priests name is on it. If these are from bi ritual priests who died and it fell into the possession of their diocese it doesn't matter they are supposed to be returned to the bishop who gave faculties. It's actually funny that the military chaplaincy makes all eastern priests say the NO or in the old days Latin mass but uses antimensions not ment for mass in the Latin rite
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 487
    • Reputation: +184/-22
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #21 on: August 13, 2019, 06:33:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • These limitations were formally incorporated into the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 823.2):

    “In the absence of an altar of his own rite, it is fundamental that a priest can celebrate his own rite on an altar consecrated in another Catholic Rite, but not on the antimensiis (altar cloths) of the Greeks.”

    In spite of these prohibition, however, many exceptions and indults were granted to individual bishops and priests and to missionary societies to use a form of antimension to celebrate Mass on portable altars.

    During the Second World War, the Holy See granted to military chaplains the privilege of using for the celebration of Mass, instead of the Latin-rite portable altar stone, “a veil which had enclosed, and well fastened, authentic relics.” This was later extended to peacetime military activities. Since it was not always possible to obtain a veil with authentic relics, the use of an Eastern-rite antimension was considered an acceptable alternative.

    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 487
    • Reputation: +184/-22
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #22 on: August 13, 2019, 06:37:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Although an acceptable alternative it must be issued by the Bishop to the priest, the use of such indicates permission from the bishop for the celebration of liturgy, in other words it assumes a canonical permission.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline Seraphina

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 526
    • Reputation: +440/-90
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #23 on: August 13, 2019, 09:01:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Outdoor Masses?  I’ve been to a number of these. 
    As a child while on trip across country trailer trip in 1965. Many larger National Parks held religious services for different groups in park amphitheaters.  There was usually a large, open-front building or platform with a covered roof to prevent problems such as you describe, but people had to sit fully outdoors, bring umbrellas if in rain.  In that case, my Dad would usually find a real church, if at all possible.  Depending upon the state of the diocese or the priest, the Mass in 1965, might be anything from fully Latin, ad orientum, to practically novus ordo.  One memory, in Grand Canyon Natnl Park, Mass was in the amphitheater. A no-nonsense priest who said Latin Mass, put up signs re: dress modestly, women cover heads. It was beastly hot, so we brought umbrellas for shade.  A problem became evident from the start.  The covered stage area had barn swallows nested in the ceiling beams who did not appreciate the Mass.  They kept dive-bombing the priest and altar.  The priest requested two men to stand guard duty on sides and keep them away.  My Dad volunteered. He stood there with a broom waving it around to chase the birds.  At the end the priest thanked the men, but announced that Catholics would need to drive the 40 miles to the church next Sunday.
    There have been outdoor Masses on Pigrimmages, outside of locked churches where the novus ordo forbade the SSPX from using the buildings.  I’ve been to a Mass in a huge tent, at a group campsite where the picnic table was used for the altar.
    I’m sure the American martyrs held Mass Mass outdoors.  Think of those who say Mass on battlefields or atop jeeps during wartime.  
    NORMALLY, Mass should be said in a Church, however.  It is wrong to have Mass outdoors or in an odd place just for the novelty.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16