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Author Topic: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?  (Read 1345 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
« on: August 12, 2019, 05:58:47 AM »
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    • I have never been comfortable with outdoor Masses, for fear that blowing wind will blow particles from the host off the paten.

    I don't even like to see fans blowing in the sanctuary for the same reason.

    If you look at this Fr. Hewko video I found of an outdoor Mass, and scroll along the bottom of the video time from left to right, you can see the antependium, altar linens, and even his maniple blowing in the wind:

    https://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/page/2/ (Scroll down to 3rd video)

    It makes me worry for the particles of host on the paten.

    Is this worry unfounded?

    Anyone have a resource regarding Church teaching on outdoor Masses?

    PS: Though I have profound differences with Fr. Hewko, I am not making any accusation against him here.  I know the SSPX seminary in Winona also frequently had priests say outdoor Masses at the little grotto of Our Lady's altar, so the idea of outdoor Masses per se (in addition to all the pilgrimage Masses, etc.) must be fine.  Just curious that nobody else ever seems concerned about blowing particles from the paten?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 08:10:01 AM »
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    • I thought canon law regulated this situation.  It's allowable under certain conditions.  For example, a marriage is never allowed outside (sorry, no beach wedding); at least, I've always heard that and have never seen a catholic wedding outside.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 12:22:50 PM »
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    • Jesus preached outside to His people.
    Also, during penal times in Ireland, Masses were outside at secret places even during the cold harsh winter

    (Sorry no beach weddings”.)   Ok.  Well Get married in the Church today, Church closes down tomorrow. Or in our case become sodomite friendly. Armed cops called on us when protesting Church closures.  
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    Offline Mmmm

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 12:33:58 PM »
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    • I have never aattended an outdoor mass for this very reason, and I never intend to.

    To answer Viva Cristo Rey, when Christ was preaching outside, he did not have the Holy Eucharist with him.  Also, in Ireland as other areas, from what i recall, masses were "outside" in a cave or some other type shelter.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 12:34:37 PM »
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    • Quote
    (Sorry no beach weddings”.)   Ok.  Well Get married in the Church today, Church closes down tomorrow. Or in our case become sodomite friendly. Armed cops called on us when protesting Church closures.
    ?what?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 12:36:33 PM »
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    • Quote
    Also, in Ireland as other areas, from what i recall, masses were "outside" in a cave or some other type shelter.  
    It was also during a time of persecution when normal churches were not accessible.
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    Offline Dolores

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 12:47:33 PM »
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    • Here's what the 1917 Canon Law has to say on the matter:

    Quote
    Canon 822

    Holy Mass must be celebrated on a consecrated altar, and in a church or oratory consecrated or blessed according to law.  Regarding private and semi-public oratories, Canon 1196 is to be observed.

    The privilege or the portable altar is conceded either by law or by indult of no other than the Holy See.

    This privilege is to be understood in such a sense, that it bestows the faculty to say Holy Mass anywhere in a decent and respectable place, and on a consecrated altar stone, not, however, on the ocean.

    The local Ordinary, or where there is a question of an exempt religious house, the major superior, can give permission for a just and reasonable cause to celebrate Holy Mass outside the church or oratory on a consecrated altar stone, in a decent place, but never in a bedroom.  This permission can be given in an extraordinary case and only per modum actus, i.e. not perpetually.

    Canon 823 goes on to say that Mass cannot be said in Protestant or Orthodox churches, and that, generally speaking, priests should only say Mass in churches of their own rite, but there are exceptions to the later rule.

    Given this, it would seem special permission is necessary to have outdoor Mass, although it seems to be a fairly common practice.  I'm not sure how to rectify this practice with Canon Law.
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    Offline Mmmm

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 01:11:29 PM »
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    • This privilege is to be understood in such a sense, that it bestows the faculty to say Holy Mass anywhere in a decent and respectable place, and on a consecrated altar stone, not, however, on the ocean.


    Does every home that receives a priest for mass have an altar stone?  Do the priests bring it with them?

    It seems to me this is  another problem.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 01:42:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mmmm on August 12, 2019, 01:11:29 PM
    This privilege is to be understood in such a sense, that it bestows the faculty to say Holy Mass anywhere in a decent and respectable place, and on a consecrated altar stone, not, however, on the ocean.


    Does every home that receives a priest for mass have an altar stone?  Do the priests bring it with them?

    It seems to me this is  another problem.
    Our Resistance chapel has a properly consecrated altar stone, and prior to that, properly blessed Greek corporals with the relics of traditionally consecrated saints sewn into them (I know, because I personally procured the relics directly from Rome, and they were then transferred by an Avrille Dominican from their containers into the antimensium).
    On another note, if priests should generally not say Mass in a church of another Rite, then trad priests should not say Mass in any church built for the Novus Ordo )as in done in many indult locations).
    Yes, I understand that the fiction of “two usages -ordinary and extraordinary- for one Rite” would seem to bypass the preclusion, but we all know that is nonsense:
    A Rite which departs from the theology of the Mass as defined at Trent is a whole new concoction, not another usage of the same Rite (as one could argue for, say, the Dominican or Praemonstratention Rite).
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 02:15:41 PM »
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    • What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 02:41:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on August 12, 2019, 02:15:41 PM
    What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
    They just used Greek corporals (basically antimensia, as used in the eastern rites, but plain white instead of the ornate and colored eastern variety).
    It is just a corporal with the relics of 2 or more different martyrs sewn into a imperceptible pouch in a corner of the underside -or topside-of the corporal.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 06:00:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on August 12, 2019, 02:15:41 PM
    What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?

    Permission to celebrate those outdoor Masses ?


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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 06:36:54 PM »
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    • I don't know if this is relevant but Google showed me this website about Irish outdoor Mass Rocks:

    Find A Mass Rock







    . . .

    The angels and the holy souls are there.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #13 on: August 12, 2019, 06:42:57 PM »
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    • I tend to agree with SeanJohnson that Traditional priests are a little too nonchalant about saying Mass outdoors.  Indeed, there is great risk of sacrilege during windy conditions.  There would have to be a proportionately grave reason (such as in the pictures from wartime).  I think this is partly due to the fact that Traditional priests have become used to offering Mass in all kinds of locations due to being on the outs with the Conciliar establishment and not having access to the buildings that were once Catholic churches.

    Now, one can never ... even in optimal conditions, completely prevent every single particle of the Blessed Sacrament from landing somewhere it should not.  But I believe that God somehow takes care of these, sending angels to safeguard the particles ... or perhaps they even lose their consecration if they cease to have the accidents of bread.  I've found the argument persuasive that if the particles are so small that they cannot be visually identified as bread (vs. a flake of skin or other substance), then since the accidents are no longer there, Our Lord is no longer in the particle, or, rather that the Lord is no longer the particle (lest my language suggest consubstantiation), i.e. that the accidents are not merely the chemical makeup of the bread, but also the appearance of being bread.  I think that there can be a danger of scruples here.  I could see a scrupulous priest examining the patent for several minutes after communion looking for every single tiny spec.  Perhaps that is overkill?  Could it lead to neurotic behavior?
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Outdoor Masses: Sacrilege or Scruple?
    « Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 06:54:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 12, 2019, 06:42:57 PM
    But I believe that God somehow takes care of these, sending angels to safeguard the particles ...
    I have questions then. Do the angels protect the particles as well during the Novus Ordo Masses, or even Black Masses, so that Our Lord is defended from sacrilegious hands even then? So that the swine think they are desecrating Our Lord but they are mistaken because he remains forever unsoiled and purer than virginal snow? But if you say that, is sacrilege even possible then? Is it all in the intention because God can never be wounded, even by our sins? But he was wounded on Calvary when he died for our sins?
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