Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on August 12, 2019, 05:58:47 AM
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I have never been comfortable with outdoor Masses, for fear that blowing wind will blow particles from the host off the paten.
I don't even like to see fans blowing in the sanctuary for the same reason.
If you look at this Fr. Hewko video I found of an outdoor Mass, and scroll along the bottom of the video time from left to right, you can see the antependium, altar linens, and even his maniple blowing in the wind:
https://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/page/2/ (https://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/page/2/) (Scroll down to 3rd video)
It makes me worry for the particles of host on the paten.
Is this worry unfounded?
Anyone have a resource regarding Church teaching on outdoor Masses?
PS: Though I have profound differences with Fr. Hewko, I am not making any accusation against him here. I know the SSPX seminary in Winona also frequently had priests say outdoor Masses at the little grotto of Our Lady's altar, so the idea of outdoor Masses per se (in addition to all the pilgrimage Masses, etc.) must be fine. Just curious that nobody else ever seems concerned about blowing particles from the paten?
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I thought canon law regulated this situation. It's allowable under certain conditions. For example, a marriage is never allowed outside (sorry, no beach wedding); at least, I've always heard that and have never seen a catholic wedding outside.
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Jesus preached outside to His people.
Also, during penal times in Ireland, Masses were outside at secret places even during the cold harsh winter
(Sorry no beach weddings”.) Ok. Well Get married in the Church today, Church closes down tomorrow. Or in our case become sodomite friendly. Armed cops called on us when protesting Church closures.
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I have never aattended an outdoor mass for this very reason, and I never intend to.
To answer Viva Cristo Rey, when Christ was preaching outside, he did not have the Holy Eucharist with him. Also, in Ireland as other areas, from what i recall, masses were "outside" in a cave or some other type shelter.
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(Sorry no beach weddings”.) Ok. Well Get married in the Church today, Church closes down tomorrow. Or in our case become sodomite friendly. Armed cops called on us when protesting Church closures.
?what?
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Also, in Ireland as other areas, from what i recall, masses were "outside" in a cave or some other type shelter.
It was also during a time of persecution when normal churches were not accessible.
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Here's what the 1917 Canon Law has to say on the matter:
Canon 822
Holy Mass must be celebrated on a consecrated altar, and in a church or oratory consecrated or blessed according to law. Regarding private and semi-public oratories, Canon 1196 is to be observed.
The privilege or the portable altar is conceded either by law or by indult of no other than the Holy See.
This privilege is to be understood in such a sense, that it bestows the faculty to say Holy Mass anywhere in a decent and respectable place, and on a consecrated altar stone, not, however, on the ocean.
The local Ordinary, or where there is a question of an exempt religious house, the major superior, can give permission for a just and reasonable cause to celebrate Holy Mass outside the church or oratory on a consecrated altar stone, in a decent place, but never in a bedroom. This permission can be given in an extraordinary case and only per modum actus, i.e. not perpetually.
Canon 823 goes on to say that Mass cannot be said in Protestant or Orthodox churches, and that, generally speaking, priests should only say Mass in churches of their own rite, but there are exceptions to the later rule.
Given this, it would seem special permission is necessary to have outdoor Mass, although it seems to be a fairly common practice. I'm not sure how to rectify this practice with Canon Law.
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This privilege is to be understood in such a sense, that it bestows the faculty to say Holy Mass anywhere in a decent and respectable place, and on a consecrated altar stone, not, however, on the ocean.
Does every home that receives a priest for mass have an altar stone? Do the priests bring it with them?
It seems to me this is another problem.
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This privilege is to be understood in such a sense, that it bestows the faculty to say Holy Mass anywhere in a decent and respectable place, and on a consecrated altar stone, not, however, on the ocean.
Does every home that receives a priest for mass have an altar stone? Do the priests bring it with them?
It seems to me this is another problem.
Our Resistance chapel has a properly consecrated altar stone, and prior to that, properly blessed Greek corporals with the relics of traditionally consecrated saints sewn into them (I know, because I personally procured the relics directly from Rome, and they were then transferred by an Avrille Dominican from their containers into the antimensium).
On another note, if priests should generally not say Mass in a church of another Rite, then trad priests should not say Mass in any church built for the Novus Ordo )as in done in many indult locations).
Yes, I understand that the fiction of “two usages -ordinary and extraordinary- for one Rite” would seem to bypass the preclusion, but we all know that is nonsense:
A Rite which departs from the theology of the Mass as defined at Trent is a whole new concoction, not another usage of the same Rite (as one could argue for, say, the Dominican or Praemonstratention Rite).
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What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
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What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
They just used Greek corporals (basically antimensia, as used in the eastern rites, but plain white instead of the ornate and colored eastern variety).
It is just a corporal with the relics of 2 or more different martyrs sewn into a imperceptible pouch in a corner of the underside -or topside-of the corporal.
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What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
Permission to celebrate those outdoor Masses ?
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fchaplainkit.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F04%2Fchaplain-on-le-shima.jpg%3Fw%3D604&f=1)
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nww2m.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F12%2FIwo-Jima-Mass-5th-div-2011_102_562.jpg&f=1)
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I don't know if this is relevant but Google showed me this website about Irish outdoor Mass Rocks:
Find A Mass Rock (https://www.findamassrock.com/)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/473a81_26d3bdaaf4b1439b8a9c4ab37a8d52e5.jpg/v1/crop/x_7,y_8,w_268,h_181/fill/w_329,h_213,al_c,lg_1,q_80/473a81_26d3bdaaf4b1439b8a9c4ab37a8d52e5.webp)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/473a81_73a904898eb743f08b3babe80f55e438.jpg/v1/crop/x_8,y_7,w_181,h_269/fill/w_238,h_348,al_c,lg_1,q_80/473a81_73a904898eb743f08b3babe80f55e438.webp)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/473a81_ffe67267b2e546bbbbaa075ab2193816.jpg/v1/crop/x_7,y_7,w_227,h_155/fill/w_318,h_203,al_c,lg_1,q_80/473a81_ffe67267b2e546bbbbaa075ab2193816.webp)
. . .
The angels and the holy souls are there.
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I tend to agree with SeanJohnson that Traditional priests are a little too nonchalant about saying Mass outdoors. Indeed, there is great risk of sacrilege during windy conditions. There would have to be a proportionately grave reason (such as in the pictures from wartime). I think this is partly due to the fact that Traditional priests have become used to offering Mass in all kinds of locations due to being on the outs with the Conciliar establishment and not having access to the buildings that were once Catholic churches.
Now, one can never ... even in optimal conditions, completely prevent every single particle of the Blessed Sacrament from landing somewhere it should not. But I believe that God somehow takes care of these, sending angels to safeguard the particles ... or perhaps they even lose their consecration if they cease to have the accidents of bread. I've found the argument persuasive that if the particles are so small that they cannot be visually identified as bread (vs. a flake of skin or other substance), then since the accidents are no longer there, Our Lord is no longer in the particle, or, rather that the Lord is no longer the particle (lest my language suggest consubstantiation), i.e. that the accidents are not merely the chemical makeup of the bread, but also the appearance of being bread. I think that there can be a danger of scruples here. I could see a scrupulous priest examining the patent for several minutes after communion looking for every single tiny spec. Perhaps that is overkill? Could it lead to neurotic behavior?
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But I believe that God somehow takes care of these, sending angels to safeguard the particles ...
I have questions then. Do the angels protect the particles as well during the Novus Ordo Masses, or even Black Masses, so that Our Lord is defended from sacrilegious hands even then? So that the swine think they are desecrating Our Lord but they are mistaken because he remains forever unsoiled and purer than virginal snow? But if you say that, is sacrilege even possible then? Is it all in the intention because God can never be wounded, even by our sins? But he was wounded on Calvary when he died for our sins?
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I have questions then. Do the angels protect the particles as well during the Novus Ordo Masses, or even Black Masses, so that Our Lord is defended from sacrilegious hands even then? So that the swine think they are desecrating Our Lord but they are mistaken because he remains forever unsoiled and purer than virginal snow? But if you say that, is sacrilege even possible then? Is it all in the intention because God can never be wounded, even by our sins? But he was wounded on Calvary when he died for our sins?
I don't think his logic demands that conclusion though. There seems to be a difference in nature between deliberate desecration, or even culpable negligence, and just God protecting us from needing to do the impossible.
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I don't think his logic demands that conclusion though. There seems to be a difference in nature between deliberate desecration, or even culpable negligence, and just God protecting us from needing to do the impossible.
Yes. This was the position of pre-Vatican II canonists Noldin and Schmitt, that God would take care of matters on that level.
For whatever reason, God sometimes allows desecration of the Blessed Sacrament.
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Yes. This was the position of pre-Vatican II canonists Noldin and Schmitt, that God would take care of matters on that level.
For whatever reason, God sometimes allows desecration of the Blessed Sacrament.
Even if I don't know exactly why, I think I can make some sense of it.
In a similar way as Hell, the ability to intentionally (or through gross negligence) desecrate the Blessed Sacrament seems like a logical consequence of free will. Not that God *has* to allow this, by any means. But its comparable to the Problem of Evil in a way, and just like evil is allowed (in the same sense you're talking about).
That's diifferent than allowing "desecration" for literally no purpose at all just 'cause of tiny, microscopic specks that can't be seen
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Masses in America were held in secret locations from farm fields, factories, private homes while priest dodged bullets while traveling in disguise.
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What kind of altar stone did priests use during the war when they offered Mass on the hood of a jeep?
They used a portable altar. And they had the appropriate dispensations from their ordinary.
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Antimensions used in the varying Byzantine rites and Tablithos (which have no relics) used by Oriental Churches are issued by the Bishop who ordains you they essentially are considered the altar. They're issued once to the priest whose name is on it (occasionally a priest may have a second antimension, never a second tablitho to be used when the priest has two churches to say liturgy in). The antimension or tablitho must be returned to the bishop upon the death of the priest. How chaplains or anyone else has one is basically a theft of a sacred object since the dead priests name is on it. If these are from bi ritual priests who died and it fell into the possession of their diocese it doesn't matter they are supposed to be returned to the bishop who gave faculties. It's actually funny that the military chaplaincy makes all eastern priests say the NO or in the old days Latin mass but uses antimensions not ment for mass in the Latin rite
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These limitations were formally incorporated into the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 823.2):
“In the absence of an altar of his own rite, it is fundamental that a priest can celebrate his own rite on an altar consecrated in another Catholic Rite, but not on the antimensiis (altar cloths) of the Greeks.”
In spite of these prohibition, however, many exceptions and indults were granted to individual bishops and priests and to missionary societies to use a form of antimension to celebrate Mass on portable altars.
During the Second World War, the Holy See granted to military chaplains the privilege of using for the celebration of Mass, instead of the Latin-rite portable altar stone, “a veil which had enclosed, and well fastened, authentic relics.” This was later extended to peacetime military activities. Since it was not always possible to obtain a veil with authentic relics, the use of an Eastern-rite antimension was considered an acceptable alternative.
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Although an acceptable alternative it must be issued by the Bishop to the priest, the use of such indicates permission from the bishop for the celebration of liturgy, in other words it assumes a canonical permission.
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Outdoor Masses? I’ve been to a number of these.
As a child while on trip across country trailer trip in 1965. Many larger National Parks held religious services for different groups in park amphitheaters. There was usually a large, open-front building or platform with a covered roof to prevent problems such as you describe, but people had to sit fully outdoors, bring umbrellas if in rain. In that case, my Dad would usually find a real church, if at all possible. Depending upon the state of the diocese or the priest, the Mass in 1965, might be anything from fully Latin, ad orientum, to practically novus ordo. One memory, in Grand Canyon Natnl Park, Mass was in the amphitheater. A no-nonsense priest who said Latin Mass, put up signs re: dress modestly, women cover heads. It was beastly hot, so we brought umbrellas for shade. A problem became evident from the start. The covered stage area had barn swallows nested in the ceiling beams who did not appreciate the Mass. They kept dive-bombing the priest and altar. The priest requested two men to stand guard duty on sides and keep them away. My Dad volunteered. He stood there with a broom waving it around to chase the birds. At the end the priest thanked the men, but announced that Catholics would need to drive the 40 miles to the church next Sunday.
There have been outdoor Masses on Pigrimmages, outside of locked churches where the novus ordo forbade the SSPX from using the buildings. I’ve been to a Mass in a huge tent, at a group campsite where the picnic table was used for the altar.
I’m sure the American martyrs held Mass Mass outdoors. Think of those who say Mass on battlefields or atop jeeps during wartime.
NORMALLY, Mass should be said in a Church, however. It is wrong to have Mass outdoors or in an odd place just for the novelty.