Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/our-lady-of-the-good-event-of-the-purification/msg648257/#msg648257)The priest from the SSPX that is leading this name change folly, does not say to call her "Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification" as the OP has seen fit to declare. I just noticed that the OP, Cera, is a woman. Now it all makes sense. Cera, it is time for you to be silent.
I found this at Suscipe Domine.What a mess, they should call me when they get their act together and decide what they want to call her. Our Lady did not say Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purification, and that tiltle does not translate to Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification. Calling the Blessed Mother, Maria or Mary is totally Novus Ordo. Imagine calling queen Elizabeth, Elizabeth or Queen Isabela, Isabela.
Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purification (Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification)
appeared to Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres in Quito, Ecuador and requested to be called by that title. It is incorrect to call her Our Lady of Good Success.
The priest from the SSPX that is leading this name change folly, does not say to call her "Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification" as the OP has seen fit to declare. I just noticed that the OP, Cera, is a woman. Now it all makes sense. Cera, it is time for you to be silent.:jester: Woman... speakest thou not!
Instructions to Women
In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works. Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed; then Eve. And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety. ( 1Tim 2:9-15 )
It's slightly amusing that TFP/TIA laity who consider themselves superior to priests, (who, let us not forget, are chosen by God to bring heaven to earth); find no problem lecturing others on proper authority.Perfect example of why men should never debate with women. Men can teach women, if a woman inquires and has the proper disposition, but never debate with a woman.
So "Our Lady of Good Success" is accurate?It has been for 30+ years in English speaking countries.
So "Our Lady of Good Success" is accurate? This whole thread is confusing.(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/75befd_f3d4e161d60145d292bd933deac7e5a5~mv2_d_1247_1742_s_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1125,h_1573,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/75befd_f3d4e161d60145d292bd933deac7e5a5~mv2_d_1247_1742_s_2.webp)(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/75befd_f3d4e161d60145d292bd933deac7e5a5~mv2_d_1247_1742_s_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1125,h_1573,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/75befd_f3d4e161d60145d292bd933deac7e5a5~mv2_d_1247_1742_s_2.webp)
Real Academia Española lists 'Éxito' as the second definition of 'Suceso'. 'Éxito' means 'success'. I think that what we might have here is a situation where spanish speaking nuns got the wrong impression of what something translates to in English, made a big deal about it to the bishop, and lots of pious people took their word for it, because the nuns are personally connected to the place where the devotion takes place.You seriously discredit the dear nuns of the convent where Our Lady appeared to their predecessor, Venerable Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres in Quito, Ecuador in the 1600s.
Read the definition in Spanish. https://dle.rae.es/?id=Yc9hj5u (https://dle.rae.es/?id=Yc9hj5u)
You seriously discredit the dear nuns of the convent where Our Lady appeared to their predecessor, Venerable Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres in Quito, Ecuador in the 1600s.The nuns are not 16th century linguists. They got the translation wrong. They might be very nice ladies, but they're not language experts.
These sisters live in the convent where Mariana is, to this day, considered incorrupt, and upon the opening of her casket in 1906, was found to exude the fragrance of lilies. They know more about the apparition than any of us. I think they know what title Our Lady asked to by known by.
Only TFP/TIA followers would try to support a mistaken translation because it was done by one of their own, Miss Marian Horvat.
The nuns are not 16th century linguists. They got the translation wrong. They might be very nice ladies, but they're not language experts.The words you say might apply to Marian Horvat.
Our Lady's message is way more important that Her title. I can't believe this is being argued about.You got that right.
It is of some concern that whether in the name of either Vatican-2-reactionaries or Psyops-professionals in the mold of 'Kevin Annett' some mischief makers now seem to be tampering with this charism that so pleased Our Lady when being invoked by the specific name of 'Buen Sucesso'/ 'Good Success' rather than the silly 'Good Event.'I see, so the point is that Our Lady's enemies are attacking her in the name of 'Our Lady of Good Success' and not in the name of 'Our Lady of the Good Event', which would indicate that the 'Good Event' name has no pedestal to be knocked off of. Similar to the argument that you do not see satan worshippers doing black masses by reversing the rubric of the novus ordo.
I see, so the point is that Our Lady's enemies are attacking her in the name of 'Our Lady of Good Success' and not in the name of 'Our Lady of the Good Event', which would indicate that the 'Good Event' name has no pedestal to be knocked off of. Similar to the argument that you do not see satan worshippers doing black masses by reversing the rubric of the novus ordo.
Good argument. I have gone back to praying to 'Our Lady of Good Success' instead of 'Nuestra Senora del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion'. I followed Fr. Purdy's lead on that for a while, but it never seemed right. And it is certainly not 'Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification'. That's ridiculous. You could argue that the word "Success" in English does not carry the same connotations as "Suceso" in Spanish, but it's still the same word, derived from the same Latin. It still has similar morphology in English to what it has in Spanish. Succession = Sucesion, and means the same thing. Suceso, in Spanish, means a thing that's been completed. It can mean that in English too. The word 'success' has appeared in dictionaries next to the word 'event'. We know that is one of the sense of the word. So I would suggest that instead of calling it Event, which just sounds weird, call it Success and remember what sense of the word is being used.
The Blessed Virgin herself asked that the name..."Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purification" be used. So it would seem important that the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary is an intrinsic part of the title. It doesn't sound right or make sense (IMO) that she should be referred to as..."Maria of the good success of the Purification" I mean, why should the Purification be thought of as somehow successful? It doesn't make sense to me, but maybe someone else has an explanation.The spiritual significance of the miraculous statue of Lady of Good Success went far beyond the feast of the Purification.
However, the title..."Maria of the Good Event of the Purification" does make sense in relation to the PURIFICATION, which was an event that did take place. The former title (Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purification) refers to the actual event of the Purification that took place. It makes more sense than a supposed "successful" purification.
This is tiresome and I'm beginning to think it might be best to leave this apparition alone lest someone bite my head off when refer to it the "wrong" way.
This is tiresome and I'm beginning to think it might be best to leave this apparition alone lest someone bite my head off when refer to it the "wrong" way.
Catholics are going to refer to the statue by any name they feel they like the best.Our Lady didn't do the translation. The nuns in Ecuador did. That's the problem. Our Lady did not say "I want Spanish speakers to call me Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion, and I want English speakers to call me Our Lady of Buen Suceso of the Purification." Our Lady didn't say that. And she didn't say to call her Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification either. You are asking us to take English language lessons from Spanish speaking nuns. That's the problem. When people try to have a discussion about it, they get attacked for backing up TIA or Marian Horvat, despite those names not even being mentioned in our arguments. The funny thing is that before I read this post, I was asking Nuestra Senora del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion to pray for us. The antics of the Suceso crowd have convinced me to do otherwise. Congratulations.
But Our Lady was quite specific in the name she wanted to use. Evidently, that doesn't matter at all to most here.
So given that 'suceso' and 'success' can both mean the same thing in different circuмstances, and that Our Lady never indicated how she wanted to be known by the English speaking world, why would 'success' be unacceptable here, if the speaker understands the sense of the word being used? That is: a thing that happened, of some importance.
Perhaps you can explain how "success" ties in with the Purification of our Lady. What would "success" mean in relation to the Purification?In the same sense as in the Spanish. I attached the old definition of "Success" to show that the word was once used the same way in English as it is in Spanish. That is 'the termination of any affair happy or unhappy'. So it would be the completed event of the Purification, the having happened and completed. The point is that the word "success" already contains that meaning, so it doesn't need to be changed. 'Event' does not actually cover it, because it doesn't have to have been completed or terminated. So to use event, actually changes the meaning of the word. You'd have to specify "the completed event" in order to get to the same meaning as is in the Spanish word "suceso". The old definition of the English word "success", contained that exact meaning. I would look it up in OED, but I don't feel like purchasing a subscription just to make an argument, but I would be that the OED still has that 'completed event' meaning as one of the definitions for "success". Older dictionaries certainly do. And that would be how it related to the Purification. The Purification of Our Lady happened and it was completed.
In the same sense as in the Spanish. I attached the old definition of "Success" to show that the word was once used the same way in English as it is in Spanish. That is 'the termination of any affair happy or unhappy'. So it would be the completed event of the Purification, the having happened and completed. The point is that the word "success" already contains that meaning, so it doesn't need to be changed. 'Event' does not actually cover it, because it doesn't have to have been completed or terminated. So to use event, actually changes the meaning of the word. You'd have to specify "the completed event" in order to get to the same meaning as is in the Spanish word "suceso". The old definition of the English word "success", contained that exact meaning. I would look it up in OED, but I don't feel like purchasing a subscription just to make an argument, but I would be that the OED still has that 'completed event' meaning as one of the definitions for "success". Older dictionaries certainly do. And that would be how it related to the Purification. The Purification of Our Lady happened and it was completed.
Perhaps you can explain how "success" ties in with the Purification of our Lady. What would "success" mean in relation to the Purification?Success lies in the purification of Our Lady because her there is no success without Jesus and all of her mysteries are ordered to the coming and Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Success lies in the purification of Our Lady because her there is no success without Jesus and all of her mysteries are ordered to the coming and Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
This forum is so loaded with SSPX trolls :facepalm:
:jester: Woman... speakest thou not!
This forum is so loaded with SSPX trolls :facepalm:No, just two women who think they "cracked the code". Just let this thread die Dr. Incredulous, changing the English speaking world title from of Our Lady of Good Success to the Spanglish Our Lady of Buen Suceso of the Purification, just is not going to happen. It was Marian Horvath's books that made that obscure apparition what little it has become today, and it is her books that continue to spread the news of the message of Sr. Mariana de Jesus. They are not going to get the books removed from the public, three cats from the Philippines aren't going to change anything, just disturb a lot of people.
The problem is the the PRIDE of TFP and their sister organization TIA was wounded when TFP laymen were replaced by Catholic priests to be in charge of the chapel. Anti-clericalism and an elevation of the importance of the laity are at the core of both TFP and TIA. TIA has repeatedly attacked Traditional Catholic priests, a Bishops, a Cardinal and a Saint.Another point to make, also not a quibble, but a serious thing to consider. TIA is not a sister organization to TFP. There are no formal agreements between the two, and in fact, there are several disagreements. The implication of your post is that TIA and TFP are in cahoots to monopolise this devotion, or something. That is not the case.
Another point to make, also not a quibble, but a serious thing to consider. TIA is not a sister organization to TFP. There are no formal agreements between the two, and in fact, there are several disagreements. The implication of your post is that TIA and TFP are in cahoots to monopolise this devotion, or something. That is not the case.
You believe that I'm an SSPX troll because I see merit in the talks of Fr. Purdy?
It's true that I do not believe that all SSPX are bad, as you evidently do. I don't think that the four Resistance bishops think that all of the SSPX priests are bad. IMO, they understand the virtue of charity and hope. They are quite different from Plinio de Oliveira in this regard.
So far, in the videos of Fr. Purdy here, I haven't seen that he has complained about the problems with the TIA/disciples of Plineo. Perhaps he is more concerned about other things than criticizing the TIA/disciples of Plinio. I cannot speak for him, and maybe I'm wrong, but perhaps he doesn't see everyone who disagrees with his views as an enemy.
Lady Meg,
Fr. Purdy cares far more about his SSPX "political mission" to undermine TIA/TFP than the historical & spiritual significance of the Quito Shrine.
As most trads know, the SSPX has no scholarship or scholars. They use 3rd party sources or home-grown sycophants, like Fr. Robinson.
The SSPX's Quito campaign is slick, utilizing their Dutch branding co. and conciliar marketing resources.
newChurch obviously wants to give them an entre' into the major Marian Shrines for the prestige, publicity and money they'll need to posture as the leaders of tradition.
Your argumentation ignores the scholarly contribution TIA gave to the Catholic world about a Marian Devotion that had been purposefully buried by Quito's notorious Freemasonic lodges.
Even Menzingen was clueless about Quito until they read TIA's works.
So, if you don't perceive yourself as helping the SSPX cause, go hang-out with Jade Liboro. She and Fr. Purdy are probably so happy with you, they will buy you lunch.
As the New Yorker, Father Purdy said, his view of "success" means winning the Lotto.Your remarks about fr Purdy are low-class. Is this site a place for us to post issues and good Catholic insight or to compete with each other on who can be the most degenerate in ridiculous gossips and name calling?
Since the SSPX dropped the vow of poverty for their holy religious , it means he could then buy a nice new pickup truck.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58b8b17c1b631b726b682df5/5aea84d38a922d7249d1a475/5aea855a2b6a283a9f8c514f/1525319042184/DJR_0158.JPG)
For his Philippino fans, it may mean winning the US Green Card lottery?
For Catholics introduced to the Devotion of Our Lady of Good Success by Dr. Marian and Atila, it means confidence that Our Lady will intercede to bring success to our earnest & prayerful intentions if they are deserving in the Eyes of God.
How is it that going back to the original name which Our Lady herself requested part of some sort of political mission by the SSPX to undermine TIA/TFP?The writer likes to read what she writes, but her every word shows that she does not read what anybody else responds. Likely that is why no one responds to her anymore.
Was it TIA/TFP that changed the name to 'Our Lady of Good Success' from the original name?
Cera has some neurotic mental imbalance when it comes to the TFP. She clearly has some grudge against them but refuses to come clean about what this is. She sees a TFP member behind every bush.Ad hominem attacks are not only a logical fallacy, they are also the last refuge of someone who has no argument.
Ad hominem attacks are not only a logical fallacy, they are also the last refuge of someone who has no argument.Do you know Mr. Atila or Dr. Marian personally, Cera? I suspect you do, or did at one point. May I ask you in all seriousness what caused your personal rupture with them?
Just fyi, I have never been in a SSPX chapel, and I don't know any SSPX priests.
In regard to shills, look in the mirror buddy. You and your TIA/TFP pals never bother to look at the links provided -- you just continue to shill for Plinio, Atila and Marian.
I do pray for you, as I pray for all those caught up the Plinio- worshiping cults.
The writer likes to read what she writes, but her every word shows that she does not read what anybody else responds. Likely that is why no one responds to her anymore.
Let's see if she can answer these two simple questions?
1) The original name is in Spanish. We are in the USA. The title that they want use is not Spanish or English, it is Spanglish, Our Lady of Buen Suceso of the Purification. If it were true that they wanted to translate "to the original name which Our Lady herself requested" it would then be Our Lady of the good event of the Purification, which is not the title they are asking for.
2) It was not TAI/TFP that came up with the title of Our Lady Of Good Success, do you know who it was?
I knew nothing about this name subject till it was brought up here on CI, yet, from the articles that have been posted, I know the answers to these questions, does the writer?
Your remarks about fr Purdy are low-class. Is this site a place for us to post issues and good Catholic insight or to compete with each other on who can be the most degenerate in ridiculous gossips and name calling?
By the way: Society priests never took the vow of poverty... They are a 'society of common life without vows' as founded by the Archbishop.
I haven't read all of the articles associated with this thread. Have you watched the video in the OP? It is, after all, what this thread is based on.If you can't answer those simple questions, you should be silent. Study what has been posted on CI on the subject in just the last 2 weeks and you will learn something. That is how I learned. I do have an advantage over you, in that I speak Spanish, and saw the fraud from the get go, never the less, I learned all from reading the articles that people posted.
If you can't answer those simple questions, you should be silent. Study what has been posted on CI on the subject in just the last 2 weeks and you will learn something. That is how I learned. I do have an advantage over you, in that I speak Spanish, and saw the fraud from the get go, never the less, I learned all from reading the articles that people posted.
I have a question for the followers or supporters of Plineo de Oliveira:Crickets?
Why is it that you have a problem with the Purification of Our Lady being part of the title in which she is known as for Quito?
Did Plineo de Oliveira himself say that the Purification should not be included in her title?
I don't need to speak Spanish in order to have a view on this subject. You don't have control of the thread. I will most certainly keep participating on this thread.Like I said, the writer learns nothing, she just writes. Can't even answer just two simple but foundational questions, nevertheless she writes and writes. This is a perfect example of why scripture tells women to learn in silence.
The sisters at the convent wanted to change the name back to the original. I'm fairly certain that they speak Spanish.
Here is their clarification, in case you missed it. Notice that it is written in both Spanish and English:
https://www.nuestrasenoradelbuensucesodelapurificacion.com/clarification-on-the-title
Like I said, the writer learns nothing, she just writes. Can't even answer just two simple but foundational questions, nevertheless she writes and writes. This is a perfect example of why scripture tells women to learn in silence.
Instructions to Women
In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works. Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed; then Eve. And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety. 1Tim 2:9-15
Crickets?
I think this has to do with the Plinio- worshiping TIA coming to the "rescue" of their Plinio- worshiping TFP friends in Quito. The sisters at the convent where Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso appeared over 400 years ago, decided to invite the SSPX priests to participate with moving the statue of Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso.
(This had previously been done by laymen who were members of the TFP.) The Plinio- worshiping TFP secret society was long-ago condemned by their local Bishop, Bishop Mayer. He called them "anti-Catholic" and an "heretical sect." At the same time the civil authorities in Brazil were assisting parents who charged the TFP with cнιℓd тrαffιcking. That was all in the 1980s.)
Who knows why the nuns preferred priests to laymen? Maybe because they are not anti-clerical like the TFP (again, according to Bishop Mayer.)
Atila, (who is with an offshoot of TFP called TIA) is coming unglued about this. He has made up various stories which conflict with each other in order to attempt to discredit the priests who say the Traditional Latin Mass. He is only discrediting himself, (except to his devotees who are tend to be more emotional than thoughtful.)
I've asked you a foundational question that you choose not to answer regarding the problem that followers of Plinio have with the Purification being part of Our Lady's title in Quito. Yet I do not expect you to be silent if you choose not to answer.I asked you personally two questions. You have asked me by name nothing. I am not a follower of Plinio, TIA, and my name is Last Tradhican. You do not think straight, you are all over the place. You need to listen to learn. Now your subject is a problem with the Purification, yet the people in favor of the name change themselves do not mention the Purification in their own titles. The article by Guimaraes clearly explains the reason why he objects to the Purification, why do you ask others why they object?
Your remarks about fr Purdy are low-class. Is this site a place for us to post issues and good Catholic insight or to compete with each other on who can be the most degenerate in ridiculous gossips and name calling?
By the way: Society priests never took the vow of poverty... They are a 'society of common life without vows' as founded by the Archbishop.
I asked you personally two questions. You have asked me by name nothing. I am not a follower of Plinio, TIA, and my name is Last Tradhican. You do not think straight, you are all over the place. You need to listen to learn. Now your subject is a problem with the Purification, yet the people in favor of the name change themselves do not mention the Purification in their own titles. The article by Guimaraes clearly explains the reason why he objects to the Purification, why do you ask others why they object?
It is a waste of time to talk to someone that does not read the responses, and just keeps writing the same opinions over and over.