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Author Topic: Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification  (Read 6216 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2019, 05:24:27 AM »
This is tiresome and I'm beginning to think it might be best to leave this apparition alone lest someone bite my head off when refer to it the "wrong" way.

Catholics are going to refer to the statue by any name they feel they like the best.

But Our Lady was quite specific in the name she wanted to use. Evidently, that doesn't matter at all to most here.

Re: Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2019, 10:45:36 AM »
Catholics are going to refer to the statue by any name they feel they like the best.

But Our Lady was quite specific in the name she wanted to use. Evidently, that doesn't matter at all to most here.
Our Lady didn't do the translation.  The nuns in Ecuador did.  That's the problem.  Our Lady did not say "I want Spanish speakers to call me Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion, and I want English speakers to call me Our Lady of Buen Suceso of the Purification."  Our Lady didn't say that.  And she didn't say to call her Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification either.  You are asking us to take English language lessons from Spanish speaking nuns.  That's the problem.  When people try to have a discussion about it, they get attacked for backing up TIA or Marian Horvat, despite those names not even being mentioned in our arguments.  The funny thing is that before I read this post, I was asking Nuestra Senora del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion to pray for us.  The antics of the Suceso crowd have convinced me to do otherwise.  Congratulations.

To recap, 'suceso' in Spanish means 1. Thing that happens, especially when of some importance. 2. Success, resultant, completion of an agreement.
'Success' in English can also be used to describe an event.  Attached is an example from the 1768 Dictionary of the English Language.  We are translating an old text, so I think this is pertinent to the subject.  Success: 1. The termination of any affair happy or unhappy. Milton. 2. Succession. Spenjer.

So given that 'suceso' and 'success' can both mean the same thing in different circuмstances, and that Our Lady never indicated how she wanted to be known by the English speaking world, why would 'success' be unacceptable here, if the speaker understands the sense of the word being used?  That is: a thing that happened, of some importance.

Additionally, when you enter into google translate "Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion", it comes out "Mary of the Good Success of the Purification".  When you type in "Maria del Buen Suceso", it gives you "Maria of Good Success".  And finally, when you type in "Nuestra Señora del Buen Suceso", you get "Our Lady of Good Success".




Offline Meg

Re: Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2019, 11:52:14 AM »
So given that 'suceso' and 'success' can both mean the same thing in different circuмstances, and that Our Lady never indicated how she wanted to be known by the English speaking world, why would 'success' be unacceptable here, if the speaker understands the sense of the word being used?  That is: a thing that happened, of some importance.

Perhaps you can explain how "success" ties in with the Purification of our Lady. What would "success" mean in relation to the Purification?

Re: Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2019, 12:14:24 PM »
Perhaps you can explain how "success" ties in with the Purification of our Lady. What would "success" mean in relation to the Purification?
In the same sense as in the Spanish.  I attached the old definition of "Success" to show that the word was once used the same way in English as it is in Spanish.  That is 'the termination of any affair happy or unhappy'.  So it would be the completed event of the Purification, the having happened and completed.  The point is that the word "success" already contains that meaning, so it doesn't need to be changed.  'Event' does not actually cover it, because it doesn't have to have been completed or terminated.  So to use event, actually changes the meaning of the word.  You'd have to specify "the completed event" in order to get to the same meaning as is in the Spanish word "suceso".  The old definition of the English word "success", contained that exact meaning.  I would look it up in OED, but I don't feel like purchasing a subscription just to make an argument, but I would be that the OED still has that 'completed event' meaning as one of the definitions for "success".  Older dictionaries certainly do.  And that would be how it related to the Purification.  The Purification of Our Lady happened and it was completed.

Offline Meg

Re: Our Lady of the Good Event of the Purification
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2019, 12:33:01 PM »
In the same sense as in the Spanish.  I attached the old definition of "Success" to show that the word was once used the same way in English as it is in Spanish.  That is 'the termination of any affair happy or unhappy'.  So it would be the completed event of the Purification, the having happened and completed.  The point is that the word "success" already contains that meaning, so it doesn't need to be changed.  'Event' does not actually cover it, because it doesn't have to have been completed or terminated.  So to use event, actually changes the meaning of the word.  You'd have to specify "the completed event" in order to get to the same meaning as is in the Spanish word "suceso".  The old definition of the English word "success", contained that exact meaning.  I would look it up in OED, but I don't feel like purchasing a subscription just to make an argument, but I would be that the OED still has that 'completed event' meaning as one of the definitions for "success".  Older dictionaries certainly do.  And that would be how it related to the Purification.  The Purification of Our Lady happened and it was completed.

Okay....I think I understand what you are saying. But I don't understand why Our Lady would make an issue of the supposed successful completion of an event such as the Purification. So we are back at square one. Why would our Lady want to attach "successful completion" to an event that we know took place? Why would she want to emphasize a "successful completion?" That doesn't make logical sense to me.