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Author Topic: Original Sin....Looking for help.  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline Clovis

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Original Sin....Looking for help.
« on: January 28, 2010, 03:51:52 AM »
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    • Greetings,

    Can anyone here recommend good books or essays dealing with the topic of original sin?

    Thanks.
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    Offline CM

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 04:20:13 AM »
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    • It's a pretty broad topic Clovis.  Can you be more specific about what you're looking for?
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    Offline Clovis

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 04:33:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: CM
    It's a pretty broad topic Clovis.  Can you be more specific about what you're looking for?


    Its broad but not that broad.

    The question of whether we share in the actual guilt of Adam's sin and in what manner.

    The effects of original sin and the nature of pre-lapsarian humanity.

    The nature of the transmission of original sin.
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    Offline Cristian

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 05:18:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clovis
    Quote from: CM
    It's a pretty broad topic Clovis.  Can you be more specific about what you're looking for?


    Its broad but not that broad.

    The question of whether we share in the actual guilt of Adam's sin and in what manner.

    The effects of original sin and the nature of pre-lapsarian humanity.

    The nature of the transmission of original sin.


    Do you read latin? Billot comes to my mind, not because I`ve read his "De originale et personale peccato", but rather because he is highly recommended...

    Cristian
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    Offline Clovis

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 05:50:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cristian
    Quote from: Clovis
    Quote from: CM
    It's a pretty broad topic Clovis.  Can you be more specific about what you're looking for?


    Its broad but not that broad.

    The question of whether we share in the actual guilt of Adam's sin and in what manner.

    The effects of original sin and the nature of pre-lapsarian humanity.

    The nature of the transmission of original sin.


    Do you read latin? Billot comes to my mind, not because I`ve read his "De originale et personale peccato", but rather because he is highly recommended...

    Cristian


    No I dont...But Im sure there must be a translation...What was his first name?
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    Offline Cristian

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 05:58:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clovis
    Quote from: Cristian
    Quote from: Clovis
    Quote from: CM
    It's a pretty broad topic Clovis.  Can you be more specific about what you're looking for?


    Its broad but not that broad.

    The question of whether we share in the actual guilt of Adam's sin and in what manner.

    The effects of original sin and the nature of pre-lapsarian humanity.

    The nature of the transmission of original sin.


    Do you read latin? Billot comes to my mind, not because I`ve read his "De originale et personale peccato", but rather because he is highly recommended...

    Cristian


    No I dont...But Im sure there must be a translation...What was his first name?


    Cardinal Louis Billot... I`m almost sure there is not a translation... :thinking:

    Where are you from Clovis? which languages are you able to read?

    Cristian
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    Offline Clovis

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 06:04:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cristian


    Where are you from Clovis? which languages are you able to read?

    Cristian


    I can read French badly...Im from Ireland.

    He wasnt the Cardinal who was forced to resign by Pope Pius XI for his support for extreme French jingoism and neo-pagan barbarism or am I confusing him with someone else?
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    Offline Cristian

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 06:25:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clovis
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    Where are you from Clovis? which languages are you able to read?

    Cristian


    I can read French badly...Im from Ireland.

    He wasnt the Cardinal who was forced to resign by Pope Pius XI for his support for extreme French jingoism and neo-pagan barbarism or am I confusing him with someone else?


    Yes, he is the same Cardinal. That story, as far as I can tell, is rather obscure, for instance, some say Billot resigned, other say he was forced to, etc.
    Billot didn`t defend the errors of Maurras, he just, as far as I know, opposed to the opportunity of condemning "The French Action".
    My personal opinion is that Pius XI was perfectly right on condemning that french movement, btw something Maurras himself recognized at his death bed, when receiving the last sacraments (he was very much devote during his life of Saint Therese of Lisieux, in spite of his paganism; he even had correspondence with Celine, one of the sisters of the Saint).
    I think Billot`s mistake is understandable. He was French man and saw in that movement an opposition to the liberal republic.

    Who knows!, in spite of all this Pius XII himself said in an allocution that Billot was a model of theologian and he was the favourite theologian of Saint Pius X.

    I read Maritain`s "Primacy of the Spiritual", a book defending Pius XI`s condemnation and I think is quite good.

    Cristian
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 07:02:07 AM »
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    • I wouldn't hold that against Billot.  Pius XI had a lot of horrible diplomatic policies; the Cristeros come to mind.
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    Offline Clovis

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 07:07:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I wouldn't hold that against Billot.  Pius XI had a lot of horrible diplomatic policies; the Cristeros come to mind.


    You wouldnt hold it against him that he supported a movement preaching hatred of Germans and glorifying violence? Action Francaise wasnt condemned for being monarchist and unlike in Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy monarchism is not De Fide in Catholicism anyway.
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    Offline Cristian

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 07:18:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I wouldn't hold that against Billot.  Pius XI had a lot of horrible diplomatic policies; the Cristeros come to mind.


    Yes, I know this is highly disputed among trads. As I said, in the case of Maurras, I think Pius XI was right (the first condemnation of Maurras was laid down by St. Pius X, himself).
    The case of the Cristeros is something I had not studied, so I can`t say who was right or wrong (although I`ve a tendency to support all these kind of decissions).

    I hate to disagree with Billot since I highly admire him but...

    Anyway sorry Clovis for changing the subject of your original post. Perhaps there is something of G. Lagrange in french, but not sure.

    Cristian
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    Offline Clovis

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 07:52:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cristian


    Anyway sorry Clovis for changing the subject of your original post. Perhaps there is something of G. Lagrange in french, but not sure.

    Cristian


    Actually I think it was me who brought up the subject of Action Francaise so I bare that guilt. I have read what Fr G Lagrange writes about it in the book Reality but I dont think he wrote a whole book dealing with this subject.

    I will try to find the book by Billot though.
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    Offline Cristian

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #12 on: January 28, 2010, 08:09:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clovis
    Quote from: Cristian


    Anyway sorry Clovis for changing the subject of your original post. Perhaps there is something of G. Lagrange in french, but not sure.

    Cristian


    Actually I think it was me who brought up the subject of Action Francaise so I bare that guilt. I have read what Fr G Lagrange writes about it in the book Reality but I dont think he wrote a whole book dealing with this subject.

    I will try to find the book by Billot though.


    Garrigou has dealt on grace in his "De Gratia" and in his treatise "Dieu" he writes quite long on the much controversed dispute among Dominicans and Jesuits, (scientia media, etc).

    Perhaps this link may help a bit.

    http://www.salve-regina.com/
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    Offline Caraffa

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #13 on: January 28, 2010, 04:19:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clovis
    Greetings,

    Can anyone here recommend good books or essays dealing with the topic of original sin?

    Thanks.


    Perhaps St. Augustine and St. Prosper?
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    Pray for me, always.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Original Sin....Looking for help.
    « Reply #14 on: January 28, 2010, 05:12:45 PM »
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    • To suggest reading Billot on original sin is like suggesting one read von Hildebrand on marriage.  Billot was known to be very liberal on original sin and to push the boundaries.  My understanding is that he said that we do not share in the guilt of Adam but only have a certain deprivation of justice.  

    I am not an expert on Billot, and only read about him second-hand in the Harvard Theological Review, but if he did say this, he was trying to push the Pelagian heresy.  This wouldn't surprise me, as for the last 150 years the majority have been Pelagian heretics who believe you can be saved in false religions.  

    Here is St. Thomas on original sin, which necessarily involves GUILT:

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2081.htm#article2

    Quote
    "According to the Catholic Faith we are bound to hold that the first sin of the first man is transmitted to his descendants, by way of origin. For this reason children are taken to be baptized soon after their birth, to show that they have to be washed from some uncleanness. The contrary is part of the Pelagian heresy, as is clear from Augustine in many of his books...


    Quote

    Reply to Objection 1:  The son is said not to bear the iniquity of his father, because he is not punished for his father's sin, unless he share in his guilt. It is thus in the case before us [ the sin of Adam -- R76 ]: because guilt is transmitted by the way of origin from father to son, even as actual sin is transmitted through being imitated."


     You need to go back before the 20th century if you want to find sound doctrine from the theologians.  

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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.
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