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Author Topic: Original sin and the Novus Ordo  (Read 873 times)

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Offline Matto

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Original sin and the Novus Ordo
« on: April 15, 2013, 02:21:31 PM »
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  • Do they still believe in the Novus Ordo that people are conceived in original sin and unless they are baptized they will be damned?

    The reason I ask is because I have encountered the belief that unbaptized babies go to Heaven. Is this belief common in the Novus Ordo? I know someone who confessed the sin of abortion to a Novus Ordo priest and the priest told him that the dead baby was praying for him. But people in Hell do not pray, so the priest must have thought that the aborted baby was in Heaven.

    If babies who died unbaptized went to Heaven, than abortion would be a good thing because it would populate Heaven with many souls who otherwise might be damned. But we know this is not true as all the babies who die unbaptized go straight to hell because of original sin (limbo is a part of hell) which is one of the reasons why the devil loves abortion.

    Does Pope Francis believe that people are conceived in original sin and must be baptized to be saved? Did the previous popes since John XXIII believe that people are conceived in original sin and must be baptized to be saved?

     :tinfoil:
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 04:28:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Do they still believe in the Novus Ordo that people are conceived in original sin and unless they are baptized they will be damned?



    No, most do not believe even though they may say they do - certainly in the case you are speaking about it is certain that NO priest does not believe it.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Sigismund

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 08:32:14 PM »
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  • I think the generally held Catholic belief is that unbaptized babies who die go to limbo.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Jehanne

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 08:47:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Do they still believe in the Novus Ordo that people are conceived in original sin and unless they are baptized they will be damned?

    The reason I ask is because I have encountered the belief that unbaptized babies go to Heaven. Is this belief common in the Novus Ordo? I know someone who confessed the sin of abortion to a Novus Ordo priest and the priest told him that the dead baby was praying for him. But people in Hell do not pray, so the priest must have thought that the aborted baby was in Heaven.

    If babies who died unbaptized went to Heaven, than abortion would be a good thing because it would populate Heaven with many souls who otherwise might be damned. But we know this is not true as all the babies who die unbaptized go straight to hell because of original sin (limbo is a part of hell) which is one of the reasons why the devil loves abortion.

    Does Pope Francis believe that people are conceived in original sin and must be baptized to be saved? Did the previous popes since John XXIII believe that people are conceived in original sin and must be baptized to be saved?

     :tinfoil:


    The Catechism of the Catholic Church reaffirms the existence of original sin:

    Quote
    389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

    405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

    406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546).

    419 "We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, "by propagation, not by imitation" and that it is. . . 'proper to each'" (Paul VI, CPG § 16).

    1018 As a consequence of original sin, man must suffer "bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" (GS § 18).

    1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

    1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 09:08:12 PM »
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  • Limbo is part of Hell?  I was taught that limbo is neither heaven nor hell but a state where the soul does not suffer yet does not achieve the beatific vision, a place of "natural" happiness or contentment.

    Please tell me where the Church teaches that Limbo is in hell.

    Marsha


    Offline Jehanne

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 09:16:55 PM »
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  • Hell can be defined as "not Heaven."  In Dante's view, Limbo would be the First Circle of Hell:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)

    The fate of infants dying without sacramental Baptism was never a completely "black/white" issue:

    Quote
    “Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.” (Summa Theologica IIIa, q.68, a.11, ad 1)


    Still, the universal sensus fidei was that there were infants who went to Limbo for want of sacramental Baptism, therefore, the Limbo of the Children must exist and be populated with at least some souls.  Pope Sixtus V taught that infants who perish from abortion are excluded from Heaven:

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    Noticing that frequently by various Apostolic Constitutions the audacity and daring of most profligate men, who know no restraint, of sinning with license against the commandment "do not kill" was repressed; We who are placed by the Lord in the supreme throne of justice, being counseled by a most just reason, are in part renewing old laws and in part extending them in order to restrain with just punishment the monstrous and atrocious brutality of those who have no fear to kill most cruelly fetuses still hiding in the maternal viscera. Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls? Who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the impiety of him who will exclude a soul created in the image of God and for which Our Lord Jesus Christ has shed His precious Blood, and which is capable of eternal happiness and is destined to be in the company of angels, from the blessed vision of God, and who has impeded as much as he could the filling up of heavenly mansions... (Effraenatam)


    http://iteadjmj.com/aborto/eng-prn.html

    Offline Stubborn

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2013, 07:15:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Limbo is part of Hell?  I was taught that limbo is neither heaven nor hell but a state where the soul does not suffer yet does not achieve the beatific vision, a place of "natural" happiness or contentment.

    Please tell me where the Church teaches that Limbo is in hell.

    Marsha




    ........Likewise, there is a minimum damnation and a maximum, as damnation means, essentially, the lost of the Beatific Vision. Minimum damnation is death in infancy without Baptism and eternity in Limbo. Deprivation of the vision of God is damnation; in the case of infants, it is the punishment which they share with all men for the sin of Adam.

    Thus Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) said: "The penalty of original sin is the loss of the vision of God; the penalty of actual sin is the torment of everlasting hell." (Innocent III: Epist. Majores Ecclesiae Causas, 1201. Denz. 780)

    St. Bonaventure said: "The punishment of being deprived of the sight of God and the loss of heavenly glory effects both adults and children who are unbaptized.
    The children are punished with others, but by the mildest punishment because they deserve only the punishment of loss but not the punishment of the senses."  - Fr. Wathen's Who Shall Ascend?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2013, 08:29:46 PM »
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  • The point of this thread is the reckless moral laxity of the NO.  


    Offline Sigismund

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    Original sin and the Novus Ordo
    « Reply #8 on: April 16, 2013, 08:32:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Limbo is part of Hell?  I was taught that limbo is neither heaven nor hell but a state where the soul does not suffer yet does not achieve the beatific vision, a place of "natural" happiness or contentment.

    Please tell me where the Church teaches that Limbo is in hell.

    Marsha


    Dante said it was.  That hardly makes it Catholic dogma that it is, however.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir