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Author Topic: Ordinary Jurisdiction for Dummies.  (Read 1720 times)

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Offline Jehanne

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Ordinary Jurisdiction for Dummies.
« on: October 08, 2012, 11:03:25 AM »
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  • Can someone explain, in simple terms, this for me, in particular, with respect to Canon 844?  For instance, do the Orthodox priests possess "ordinary jurisdiction"?  If so, why do the SSPX priests not possess it?  Why can the Catholic faithful, per Canon 844, confess to an orthodox priest but could not confess, under the same circuмstances, to a SSPX priest?


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 12:33:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Can someone explain, in simple terms, this for me, in particular, with respect to Canon 844?  For instance, do the Orthodox priests possess "ordinary jurisdiction"?  If so, why do the SSPX priests not possess it?  Why can the Catholic faithful, per Canon 844, confess to an orthodox priest but could not confess, under the same circuмstances, to a SSPX priest?


    The schismatic and now heretical orthodox do not have ordinary jurisdiction.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 01:02:13 PM »
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  • I'll take a stab at it.  Orthodox priests do not have ordinary jurisdiction, since that flows from the ministry of the papacy.  In fact, I am not sure it would be correct to say they have any jurisdiction at all, although they sincerely believe they do and of course act accordingly.  They have power as a result of their valid ordinations.  When an Orthodox priest celebrates the Divine Liturgy, it is valid and the bread and wine really become the Body and Blood of Christ because the celebrant is a real priest.  This would be true of a Catholic priest who was solemnly excommunicated, however.  It has to do with the power of orders, not canonical jurisdiction.  

    SSPX priests do not have ordinary jurisdiction, since they operate without the consent or support of the pope, who does not share his universal jurisdiction with them.  They believe they have supplied jurisdiction due to the crisis situation in the Church.  As Matthew mentioned on another thread,  the salvation of souls is the highest law.  The Church supplies jurisdiction in such cases.  The question is, does the situation in the Church justify the usurpation of authority needed to ordain bishops without a papal mandate, ordain priests, and establish chapels all without the consent of the Pope? The SSPX and related clergy and faithful think it does, and act accordingly.

    I don't think it does, so I will not ordinarily assist and an SSPX Mass.  In the unlikely event that I were in a position that there was no canonical Mass available on a Sunday or Holy Day but there was an SSPX Mass, I would attend but refrain from receiving Holy Communion.  If you don't Believe they have supplied jurisdiction, there is no other choice.

    As I understand it, Sedevacantist think that ordinary jurisdiction has ceased to function in the church,  It would have to have done, because if there is no pope there can be no ordinary jurisdiction.  Under normal circuмstances, the College of Cardinals sort of holds jurisdiction in trust between the death of one pope and the election of another, but as far as Sedevacantists are concerned the Sacred College is no more real than the guy in white claiming to be pope.  They think that supplied jurisdiction is the only jurisdiction currently operating in the Church.  

    The most important related question involves confession.  Confession and absolution require jurisdiction.  If the SSPX is right about having supplied jurisdiction due to the present situation in the Church, there is no problem.  If they are wrong, their absolutions are not valid unless the penitent is dying.  

    I a long way from an expert.  If I am wrong about anything, please correct me.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 01:22:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    As I understand it, Sedevacantist think that ordinary jurisdiction has ceased to function in the church, It would have to have done, because if there is no pope there can be no ordinary jurisdiction. Under normal circuмstances, the College of Cardinals sort of holds jurisdiction in trust between the death of one pope and the election of another, but as far as Sedevacantists are concerned the Sacred College is no more real than the guy in white claiming to be pope. They think that supplied jurisdiction is the only jurisdiction currently operating in the Church.

    The most important related question involves confession. Confession and absolution require jurisdiction. If the SSPX is right about having supplied jurisdiction due to the present situation in the Church, there is no problem. If they are wrong, their absolutions are not valid unless the penitent is dying.

    I a long way from an expert. If I am wrong about anything, please correct me.


    The first notion is heretical.

    The second point would be that when jurisdiction is supplied by the Church, that jurisdiction is supplied for individual acts. The priest without ordinary or delegated jurisdiction never has any jurisdiction except that required for the individual acts he may perform. He doesn't have supplied jurisdiction, his acts may attract it however.

    Quote from: Woywod, Canon Law Commentary
    TITLE V.

    Ordinary and Delegated Jurisdiction.

    127. In the Catholic Church there is, by Divine institution, the power of jurisdiction or government. This is twofold, that of the external forum and that of conscience or the internal forum, which latter is subdivided into sacramental and extra-sacramental jurisdiction. (Canon 196.)

    128. By ordinary jurisdiction is meant the one that goes by right with the appointment to an office. Delegated jurisdiction is such that may be committed to a cleric by his superior. (Canon 197.)

    129. In law the term Ordinary, besides having reference to the Roman Pontiff, refers to the bishop, abbot or prelate nullius and their vicars general, administrator, vicar and prefect apostolic, in their respective territories, and, in case of vacancy in these offices, to those who by law or legitimate custom succeed them in office. In exempt clerical Religious Orders the major superiors come also under the name of Ordinaries. By the term ordinarius loci or locorum are meant all person enumerated in this Canon except religious superiors. (Canon 198.)

    130. He who has ordinary jurisdiction can delegate it to another, either totally or in part, unless the law expressly restricts the power of delegation. Jurisdiction delegated by the Holy See can be subdelegated, either for one act or also habitually, unless the person was delegated for reason of personal aptitude (industria personae), or subdelegation was forbidden. Jurisdiction delegated for a universality of cases by an Ordinary inferior to the Roman Pontiff can be subdelegated in individual cases. In all other delegations the delegated jurisdiction cannot be subdelegated except the power to subdelegate has been expressly granted. Acts that do not import jurisdiction can be subdelegated by delegated judges even though subdelegation was not expressly conceded. No subdelegated jurisdiction can be further subdelegated, unless this power has been explicitly granted. (Canon 199.)

    131. The ordinary power of jurisdiction and the jurisdiction delegated for the universality of cases is to be interpreted liberally; all other jurisdiction strictly. To whom, however, jurisdiction has been delegated, to him it is understood all such power has been given as is necessary to make his jurisdiction effective. He who claims to possess delegated jurisdiction has the burden of proving his delegation. (Canon 200.)

    132. The power of jurisdiction can be exercised directly over subjects only. The judicial power, both ordinary and delegated, cannot be exercised for one’s own comfort nor outside the proper territory. For exceptions Canons 401, 1; 881, 2; and 1637 are to be considered. The non-judicial or so-called voluntary jurisdiction can be exercised even in one’s own favor, and made use of even outside one’s territory, and in favor of a subject who is outside the territory, unless the nature of the case or the positive rules of law forbid such use of jurisdiction. According to this rule a bishop can give various faculties to one of his priests even though the bishop is outside his diocese, and he can give them to his priests even though they be absent from the diocese. Faculties, unless restricted by law, or by the one conceding them, can be used also outside the diocese of the bishop who granted them. The faculties granted to their priests by bishops in virtue of the five or ten years faculties they formerly received from the Holy See were, as a rule, granted to priests only as long as they worked in the diocese. Whether certain absolutions from censures and other faculties could be exercised by the priests also while they were for a time outside their own diocese depended on the wording of the faculties. Many of the papal faculties were granted even to the bishops with the restriction that they could not make use of them outside the limits of their diocese. (Canon 201.) Cf. No. 900 on the revocation of these faculties.

    133. An act of jurisdiction in the external forum, whether ordinary or delegated, holds also for the internal forum. The act of one having jurisdiction for the internal forum only does not hold in the external forum. Jurisdiction given for the internal forum can be exercised also out of confession, unless the faculty is restricted to the sacramental forum. If the wording of the faculty does not mention the forum, it is considered as given for both the internal and external forum, unless the nature of the faculty indicates the contrary. (Canon 202.)

    134. The delegate who acts beyond his mandate, either as to the matters or the persons over which he received power, acts invalidly. The delegate, however, is not to be considered to have exceeded the limits of his delegation if only the manner in which he transacted the affair is contrary to the wishes of the one who delegated him, unless the way how to proceed was prescribed as a condition of the delegation. (Canon 203.)

    135. If a person applies to a higher superior, passing the inferior, the so-called voluntary jurisdiction of the inferior, i. e. such as is exercised outside judicial proceedings, is not thereby suspended, whether he has ordinary or delegated power. He shall, however, not interfere when the matter has been brought to the higher superior except for grave and urgent reasons, in which case he shall immediately notify the superior. (Canon 204.)

    136. If several individuals have received delegated power concerning the same affair and doubt arises whether the delegation was given in solidum, or collegialiter, it is to be considered given in solidum in matters that do not require judicial proceedings, as collegialiter in matters of judicial proceedings. If several persons are delegated in solidum, he who first makes use of the power in the case excludes the others so that they no longer have power, unless the first is after wards impeded, or does not wish to continue to act in the affair.

    If several persons are delegated collegialiter, all must act together in the case in order that their action may be valid, unless in the faculty other provisions are made. (Canon 205.)

    137. If several persons have been delegated for the same affair but at different times, the one first delegated in order of time must attend to the affair unless the later delegation explicitly revoked the former. (Canon 206.)

    138. The delegated jurisdiction ceases in the following ways : when the mandate has been complied with ; when the time has expired or the number of cases is exhausted; when the motive for which delegation was given has ceased; by recall of the delegation made known to the one delegated by the superior; by renunciation of the delegate and acceptance of the same by the superior; but delegated jurisdiction does not cease by the passing out of office of the one delegating, except in the case mentioned in Canon 61. Cf. No. 46. Jurisdiction granted for the internal forum is still validly exercised if through inadvertence the priest has not noticed that the time for his faculties has expired or that he had used up the number of cases for which he had faculties. When several persons are delegated  collegialiter, all lose their jurisdiction by the fact that one is absent, dies, refuses to act, etc.. unless the contrary is stated in the docuмent of delegation. (Canon 207.)

    139. As stated in Canon 183, 2, the ordinary jurisdiction does not cease on account of the death, etc., of the one conceding the office. When the office is lost, the ordinary jurisdiction attached to it is likewise lost. The ordinary jurisdiction is suspended in the case of legitimate appeal, unless the appeal is only in devolutivo. (Canon 208.) Exceptions to this Canon are found in Canons 2264 and 2284.

    140. The Church supplies jurisdiction both for the external and the internal forum (1) in common error, (2) in a positive and probable doubt of fact as well as of law. (Canon 209.) The former teaching of authors concerning supplied jurisdiction, especially as to the titulus coloratus, etc., must be corrected to agree with this Canon.

    141. The power of orders which has been attached to an office by the legitimate ecclesiastical superior or been committed to a person by him, cannot be delegated to others, unless the law or the indult explicitly allows delegation. (Canon 210.)
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 02:02:27 PM »
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  • Though I appreciate the many links, cites,etc-any chance anyone can translate into real-world hypothetical examples? or real ones....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 02:51:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    Though I appreciate the many links, cites,etc-any chance anyone can translate into real-world hypothetical examples? or real ones....


    128. By ordinary jurisdiction is meant the one that goes by right with the appointment to an office. Delegated jurisdiction is such that may be committed to a cleric by his superior. (Canon 197.)

    No office, no ordinary jurisdiction. Only an ordinary can delegate jurisdiction.  

    140. The Church supplies jurisdiction both for the external and the internal forum (1) in common error, (2) in a positive and probable doubt of fact as well as of law. (Canon 209.) The former teaching of authors concerning supplied jurisdiction, especially as to the titulus coloratus, etc., must be corrected to agree with this Canon.


    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 06:36:09 PM »
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  • Under what circuмstances, if any, would the Church not supply jurisdiction?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 06:40:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Under what circuмstances, if any, would the Church not supply jurisdiction?


    According to these people it's impossible for the apostolic succession to continue without a Pope.  

    Pretty much an untenable position under a long period of sede vacante.  



    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 06:46:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Under what circuмstances, if any, would the Church not supply jurisdiction?


    The Church would not supply jurisdiction to a priest hearing confessions without faculties, especially if the penitent was not under the mistaken impression that he did have faculties.  That is one example
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 07:11:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Under what circuмstances, if any, would the Church not supply jurisdiction?


    The Church would not supply jurisdiction to a priest hearing confessions without faculties, especially if the penitent was not under the mistaken impression that he did have faculties.  That is one example


    However, I don't believe this is the case at all times. For example, in the case of Traditional priests, those who are independent of current Roman Jurisdiction for the protection of the Faith and their faith, the Church still provides jurisdiction because those in positions of authority are not in harmony with the dictates of law. "(æquitas), epikeia demands that it be set aside or corrected. St. Thomas explains the lawfulness of this procedure. Because human actions, which are the subject of laws are individual and innumerable, it is not possible to establish any law that may not sometimes work out unjustly."

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 07:20:15 PM »
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  • If the crisis in the Church is what many trads say it is, than this would certainly be true.  That is really the question, isn't it?  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 08:25:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    If the crisis in the Church is what many trads say it is, than this would certainly be true.  That is really the question, isn't it?  


    Its clear that you've certainly answered this in the negative, and the majority of us here in the positive. So all we can do at this point is pray for a holy death. God will sort this mess out.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »
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  • Indeed!   :smile:
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline jhfromsf68

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    « Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 09:33:20 PM »
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  • Reading this thread has raised a question in my mind concerning jurisdiction and the SSPX.

    I've recently attended the SSPX ignatian retreat Unfortunately I went to the retreat in a state of mortal sin. During my general confession I confessed my current as well as my past sins to the priest. It was a great burden off my shoulders of course.

    I don't have access to an SSPX mass where I live and regularly attend diocesan traditional latin mass and also a mass said by one of the indult groups. My question is if the SSPX doesn't have supplied jursidiction does that mean I wasn't actually absolved of my mortal sins during the retreat?  Does that mean I'm still in a state of mortal sin and have been taking sacrilegious communions since coming back?

    This hasn't really bean a thought in my mind before I read this thread. But now I'm curious.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 09:54:21 PM »
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  • My advice would be to trust in the mercy of God and His ability to work out the problems of canon law, and then talk to a priest you trust, by phone or email if needed.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir