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Author Topic: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?  (Read 4200 times)

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Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2017, 05:59:51 PM »
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  • Great post, White Wolf! I don't post on here very often but I read from this forum every day. I have to admit that I read a few of your posts on another thread and I thought, "This canine's been into the catnip" but the above post has made me change my mind about you.

    Opus Dei is just a wannabe Masonic lodge where middle to upper level bureaucrats and business people can play at being trads without having to criticize the pope or Vat2, which wouldn't go over too well at Sunday Mass in the fancy Novus Ordo spaceship church or at the country club for a few holes afterwards. They did a pretty good job of ruining Spain (yes, they made it rich for about 30 years and now it's one of the least Catholic countries in Europe, and broke as well) and they've tried to do the same in some Latin American countries like Chile and Mexico. Secret societies have no place in the CATHOLIC church.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: Octopus Dei, doing the work of Antichrist since 1952...
    « Reply #16 on: May 25, 2017, 07:39:21 PM »
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  • It is bad to accuмulate money and power...
    People who say this generally are unemployed and live off someone else.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #17 on: May 25, 2017, 08:39:25 PM »
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  • "I was born poor, I lived in poverty, I wish to die poor." - Last will and testament of Pope St. Pius X.

    A quote from that well-known welfare bum, St. Pius X

    If you're born with money or power, use it for the good of the Church and the greater glory of God. If you're not, don't waste your life trying to get it.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #18 on: May 25, 2017, 08:56:59 PM »
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  • "I was born poor, I lived in poverty, I wish to die poor." - Last will and testament of Pope St. Pius X.

    A quote from that well-known welfare bum, St. Pius X

    If you're born with money or power, use it for the good of the Church and the greater glory of God. If you're not, don't waste your life trying to get it.
    Lol!  Let the self-righteous platitudes begin!
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #19 on: May 26, 2017, 01:52:14 AM »
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  • Answers I got from CAF yesterday for the very same questions I had in this thread.  

    https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1053043


    * * * * *


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    "When did you stop beating your wife?"

    First of all, is Opus Dei really bad? (hint: no).



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    The question you should be asking is "why do people say Opus Dei is bad"?

    Answer: because they either hate the Catholic Church and all it stands for, or they are ignorant fools who believe what they read in a fictional novel by Dan Brown..

    Opus Dei is a personal prelature of the Pope. It was founded by SAINT Jose Marie Escriva and in short, encourages people to find God in their daily work. There is NOTHING bad about it.

    http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/

    __________________

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    You phrased your question with the assumption already made. That's not a sign of asking a question in good faith.

    The proper phrasing is: "Is Opus Dei bad? If so, why?"

    Let Opus Dei speak for itself:
    http://http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article/message/

    Read about its SAINTED founder:
    http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article...e-john-paul-i/

    Read what St. John Paul II said when he erected Opus Dei as a personal prelature.
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cbisutsi.htm

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    Your friends' perception is probably due to the fact that it is a secret society (if I understand correctly), and to people outside such groups this secrecy lends an air of having secrets they need to hide, and this is reinforced by the rumors of mortifications that they practice.

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     Re: Why would Opus Dei be bad?

    Because of bad fiction and conspiracy theories.

    Quote


    OP, you might find this thread from last year useful: What is Opus Dei? and why are they so controversial?

    I will re-purpose my answer from that thread. For a rigorously even-handed portrayal, you can check out John Allen's book: "Opus Dei: An Objective Look Behind the Myths and Reality of the Most Controversial Force in the Catholic Church". It's about $5 used on Amazon.

    Allen's one of the most well-rounded and fair-minded Catholic journalists out there (IMO) and he gives a thorough airing to the arguments for and against Opus Dei. He comes at it from a neutral perspective and really gets at the heart of all the issues (and ends up coming away with a surprisingly positive view). I am thoroughly glad I read it.



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    I have heard many people say that Opus Dei is good. 





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    It probably has some secrets, but they're not all that secret. While he was in school, my son was invited to teach in one of their schools in NYC to "at risk" teenage boys. While there, he lived the life the Opus Dei people live. Kind of Spartan. Lots of prayer. Also, lots of interesting talks by some extraordinary people. The meals are good but just a little short of ample. In the evening, they tend to get together and listen to some expert on something or other talk. Tonight it might be theology. Tomorrow night it might be nuclear physics. Next night it might be some aspect of the law. Next perhaps medicine. Next perhaps some argument of St. Thomas Aquinas. Typically, they have one (just one) beer, mixed drink or glass of wine at those talks. That's their relaxation time. They don't watch TV.

    Pretty intellectual, but also pretty spiritual. Their habits are very punctual and regular.

    What I think puts some people off is that there is, within it, an even more Spartan group that live celibate lives in community, which is what my son experienced. They share a life of prayer and work. All or most of them work outside the community and are all kinds of things; doctors, lawyers, architects, government people.

    They're not conspiring to take over the world. A lot of Opus Dei is about showing your faith in your work and setting example.

    I don't see a single thing wrong with it.







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    "...due to the fact that it is a secret society." ???

    What is that supposed to mean?? That is no "fact." And what is the source of such "facts"? Hearsay and gossip from folks who loathe orthodox Catholicism I'll guess.

    The label "secret society" gets thrown around casually, yet no one seems to define what that is. I suppose for some people, unless Opus Dei members publish when they eat, sleep, drink, pray, and fart each day, they're being "secretive." 

    I'm not sure what "secrets" some people are after. Ridiculous. Probably after information that is personal and none of their business anyway.



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    Hi.  I have my doubts about certain societies, and in some cases these come in the form of very strong reservations, yet, still, we have to be careful not to get pulled into the conspiracy theorist's undisciplined imagination, no doubt often accompanied by too many D.B novels, and material of a similar brand. Start with fact, not fiction. It is okay to not like everything and even to seriously call into question some areas of religious practice, but do make sure that your reservations and questions on the matter, are accompanied instead, by lots of prayer.

    Quote
    Heh.  I wonder what the percentage breakdown would be between those who hate the Catholic Church and those who are ignorant fools.

    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #20 on: May 26, 2017, 08:39:52 AM »
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  • I wonder how many posters have any personal experiences with Opus Dei, and how many simply google to find what they are looking for?

    Opus Dei, in my experience, attracted many good Catholics to practice their faith within a group of Catholics. They also attracted men and women who, for their own reasons did not want to become nuns and priests, but could offer their lives to God in a 'working' way. How many posters have done that?

    That said, they are 'blessed' in the manner they accuмulate property and wealth. No more than the Church of 2,000 years did judging by the property and buildings they accuмulated up to 1960. If one finds fault in this, then the Church itself must share that fault. As individuals, they do not share in any wealth, but live modestly as any Catholic should.

    Unfortunately, such is their 'system' that volunteers are inclined to become institutionalised, with little or no opinion of their own. They must comply to what unfortunately is obedience to modernist Rome without QUESTION.

    To sum up, one recently told me Pope Francis is 'a breath of fresh air.' Need I say any more.

    All this as it may be, there are in its ranks many Catholics living very good lives as God would want us to do. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #21 on: May 27, 2017, 04:24:55 AM »
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  • I wonder how many posters have any personal experiences with Opus Dei, and how many simply google to find what they are looking for?

    Opus Dei, in my experience, attracted many good Catholics to practice their faith within a group of Catholics. They also attracted men and women who, for their own reasons did not want to become nuns and priests, but could offer their lives to God in a 'working' way. How many posters have done that?

    That said, they are 'blessed' in the manner they accuмulate property and wealth. No more than the Church of 2,000 years did judging by the property and buildings they accuмulated up to 1960. If one finds fault in this, then the Church itself must share that fault. As individuals, they do not share in any wealth, but live modestly as any Catholic should.

    Unfortunately, such is their 'system' that volunteers are inclined to become institutionalised, with little or no opinion of their own. They must comply to what unfortunately is obedience to modernist Rome without QUESTION.

    To sum up, one recently told me Pope Francis is 'a breath of fresh air.' Need I say any more.

    All this as it may be, there are in its ranks many Catholics living very good lives as God would want us to do.
    My father when he was alive used to go to their days of reflection and to confession to them.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #22 on: May 27, 2017, 01:58:35 PM »
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  • I wonder how many posters have any personal experiences with Opus Dei, and how many simply google to find what they are looking for?
    I have personal experience, or rather, my mother does. One of her best friends from high school and their family moved to Canada to join an Opus Dei "community" and fled several years later back to their home. Their particular case was mentioned in the Vaticanista John Allen's book about Opus Dei.

    Opus Dei, in the long run, isn't much different from the Jehovah's Witnesses. It's just a money-making machine with a neo-conservative facade designed to lure people who are serious about their faith but not ready to take the step of returning to tradition. They are pious frauds.

    They preach unyielding loyalty to the N.O. hierarchy regardless of what that hierarchy does or says. And the N.O. hierarchy loves all the $$ that Opus Dei drops into the collection basket. It's a marriage of convenience.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #23 on: May 27, 2017, 02:04:36 PM »
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  • My father when he was alive used to go to their days of reflection and to confession to them.
    So that explains why you, the most liberal poster on Cathinfo, are all gung-ho for Opus Dei? That's not very intellectually honest, is it?
    My dad was in the Knights of Columbus for the last thirty years of his life. Does that mean I should be a cheerleader for them, too? Any organization, however pious or well-intentioned, that goes belly up for the N.O. hierarchy, is in the long run an enemy of the restoration of Our Holy Catholic Church and the salvation of souls. 
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline White Wolf

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    What makes the big lie respectable...
    « Reply #24 on: May 28, 2017, 04:38:33 AM »
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  • is that Respectable people support the big lie.

    I saw it all in a video yesterday.  Pope Frantic and Donald Chump (my new official name for this POTUS, who dropped the MOAB on himself by bombing Syria and now he's a representative of Raytheon for the Saudis...), shaking hands at the Vatican, and later Melania Chump giving an intro for her "husband"  (Hasn't Chump had more wives than Henry?) that almost made me vomit.  She didn't mention that somebody had to die on the organ harvesting table so that Greek boy could get his "heart transplant" nor that our "troops" killed over 2 million people in Iraq while spreading freedom and democracy, and tossing puppies over cliffs in their spare time, and starring in propaganda flicks like saving Jessica Lynch, and etc.  Welcome to Disney World.  Maybe in four years we'll actually elect Mickey Mouse...
    So it surprises me none that somebody can collect a multitude of quotes from Sheepledom praising Octopus Dei, and Fr Escriva, who, let's see, was canonized by JP2.  What a ringing endorsement!

    I'm sure there are some great people in Octopus Dei.  I'm also sure there were great soldiers fighting for nαzι Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Ghegnis Khan.  I'm sure there were some great writers for Playboy and Penthouse.  I'm sure Julius III had some great theologians.  Anybody want to applaud those people and organizations?
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!

    Offline congaudeant

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #25 on: May 29, 2017, 09:06:32 AM »
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  • Opus Dei is no friend of tradtional Catholicism. It is, on the other hand, a hotbed of novus ordo activity.
    Congaudeant Catholici


    Online Nadir

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #26 on: May 29, 2017, 04:42:09 PM »
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  • Opus Dei is no friend of tradtional Catholicism. It is, on the other hand, a hotbed of novus ordo activity.
    It's worse than that, Congaudeant. Octopus Judei anticipated Vatican II while the rest of us had no need or desire for it. From the horse's mouth: http://www.opusdei.org/en-us/article/the-work-and-vatican-ii/
    The Work and Vatican II
    From the doctrinal point of view, is the Work traditionalist or traditional? And how does that fit in with Vatican II?

    OTHER DOcuмENTS May 9, 2004

    “Traditionalism,” in its different forms, is a sickness based on a mistaken concept of Tradition. In its genuine meaning, “Tradition” plays an important role in the Church along with Sacred Scripture, from which it is inseparable.

    The Church has a splendid history. Her spiritual treasures—the saints—light up with their lives the past twenty centuries, and light up our lives today. The Church is also the source of culture, of incomparable works of art, science, literature, education, and charity. This history also lives in the heart of every human being through Jesus Christ, who is the same today, yesterday, and forever.
    The Second Vatican Council spoke to us about all of this. Its docuмents also enable us to hear the voice of our Founder, who preached many of those same ideas beginning in the 1930s. All of the Church’s councils form a unity of teaching doctrine, none of it contradictory. And so, if I may put it this way, Opus Dei finds its doctrinal patrimony in Vatican II; there one finds both what is new and what is traditional.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #27 on: May 29, 2017, 11:48:05 PM »
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  • So that explains why you, the most liberal poster on Cathinfo, are all gung-ho for Opus Dei? That's not very intellectually honest, is it?
    My dad was in the Knights of Columbus for the last thirty years of his life. Does that mean I should be a cheerleader for them, too? Any organization, however pious or well-intentioned, that goes belly up for the N.O. hierarchy, is in the long run an enemy of the restoration of Our Holy Catholic Church and the salvation of souls.
    The purpose of Opus Dei is the sanctification of its members. If it doesn't help the person grow in holiness then maybe that person should leave or not associate themselves with them. Obviously they are not for everyone. There is also the SSPX third order. Their purpose is also to help the laity grow in the holiness that is the charism of the SSPX But are they for everyone? 

    Online Nadir

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    Re: Opus Dei: Good? Bad? Why?
    « Reply #28 on: May 30, 2017, 12:14:33 AM »
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  • The purpose of Opus Dei is the sanctification of its members. If it doesn't help the person grow in holiness then maybe that person should leave or not associate themselves with them. Obviously they are not for everyone. There is also the SSPX third order. Their purpose is also to help the laity grow in the holiness that is the charism of the SSPX But are they for everyone?
    I don't believe it is difficult to get out of SSPX 3rd order, but Opus Dei is not in the same league, and it is ridiculous to compare one with the other. The internet is awash with stories from people who have left OD which, as with any cult, has a strong emotional hold on its members.
    .
    This is worth a read:
    http://www.opus-info.org/index.php?title=Seventeen_Years_in_Opus_Dei
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline White Wolf

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    The Purpose of Octopus Dei is sanctification?
    « Reply #29 on: May 30, 2017, 12:41:57 PM »
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  • I suppose that is the purpose of the Mormons also.
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!