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Author Topic: On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting  (Read 3460 times)

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Offline Desmond

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  • The idea one should refrain from posting given one's admitted lackluster knowledge of the Catholic Faith has been presented to me several times already.
    Last of which by McCork on separate occasions.

    I too, can see the wisdom of such a criticism.
    By posting what may very well be erroneous/misunderstood opinions there lies a very real risk of directly or indirectly propagating error.

    Potentially many readers, in the same predicament, if not even relatively more erudite, might be confused or lead astray by being exposed to error.

    Especially if the error stems from ignorance, whereby terminology itself might be incorrect or misapplied; concepts and arguments misrepresented; immutable truths exposed to involuntary mockery in a worst case scenario.

    On the other hand, as I said, especially in our time, where certainties are a rare commodity indeed, and error comes, seemingly, from the very top, it might just amount to a drop in the ocean.

    And, from the point of view of the "catechumen", it might be more profitable-or just less dangerous-to frequent an informal, online gathering of self-professing faithful, so he might learn from debates and conflagration of ideas themselves, more so than trusting a particular organisation, such a Sedevacantist or self-styled "Traditional" one, which, for all we know, might be in error themselves.

    Thereby, a plurality of contrasting opinions, becomes a safeguard from error, more than a carrier of error itself.

    Having exposed the issue, both as moral predicament BY the "ignorant poster", and the annexed risks he exposes, by his own agency, others;
    and, as an opportunity of learning, and safeguard in this dangerous times FOR he himself;

    I ask you, what do you think?

    Is it a good idea to keep posting, or should one first seek formal education/indulge in strict studies, before exposing oneself (in both senses) to a forum like this very one?


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 06:00:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: A Commentary of Canon Law
       Our Lord Jesus Christ entrusted the deposit of faith to the Church, that under the constant guidance and assistance of the Holy Spirit, she might sacredly guard and faithfully explain this divine revelation. The Church has therefore the right and the duty, independently of any civil power, to teach all nations the full evangelical doctrine; and all men are bound by the law of God to learn this doctrine properly and to embrace the true Church of God (c. 1322).
        The Church guards and explains this deposit of faith. She does not add to it, for it was completed and closed with the death of the last Apostle, Saint John. To guard means to keep and defend; in doing this the Church must sometimes declare truths which are not contained in revelation but which are necessary to keep revealed truth. To explain means to make clear what is obscure. The so-called developments of doctrine through dogmatic definitions may be compared to the sharpening of the focus on a film which is projected on a screen. The details which become discernible with clear focus are not new; they were all in the original picture, but they are now brought out more clearly.
        All those truths must be believed fide divina et catholica, which are contained in the written word of God or in tradition and which the Church proposes for acceptance as revealed by God, either by solemn definition or through her ordinary and universal teaching. To pronounce a solemn definition is the part of an Ecuмenical Council or of the Roman Pontiff speaking ex cathedra. No doctrine is to be considered as dogmatically defined unless this is evidently proved (c. 1323).
        It is not enough to avoid heresy, but one must also carefully shun all errors which more or less approach it; hence all must observe the constitutions and decrees by which the Holy See has proscribed and forbidden opinions of that sort (c. 1324).
        The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the circuмstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion, an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor (c. 1325, §1).
        One who after baptism, while remaining nominally a Christian, pertinaciously (that is, with conscious and intentional resistance to the authority of God and the Church) denies or doubts any one of the truths which must be believed de fide divina et catholica, is a heretic; if he falls away entirely from the Christian faith, he is an apostate; finally if he rejects the authority of the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church who are subject to him, he is a schismatic (c. 1325, §2).
        Catholics are to avoid disputations or conferences about matters of faith with non-Catholics, especially in public, unless the Holy See, or in case of emergency the Ordinary of the place, has given permission (c. 1325, §3).


    As a lay person, it is important to remove logical fallacies from the process of making a conclusion, this is not a debate.  Authoritative references should always be employed.  Charity and love, forgiveness and tolerance.  Don't be quick to judge; don't be rash.  Respect authority.  Pray often.
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline TKGS

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 07:00:16 PM »
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  • I don't see a problem with people posting their opinions on theological matters according to their understanding.  The problem is when another member posts a refutation using authoritative references (which, actually, I don't often see on the forum) and the original poster refutes this with feelings or a completely idiotic "interpretation" of the theological references or an improper use of other theological references.

    The problem is not when members don't know what they don't know but refuse to learn when corrected and will actually contradict themselves in multiple posts and sometimes in just one post while criticizing other members who are consistent in their arguments for being inconsistent.  

    This is when I stop reading the topic altogether.  Frankly, there is only one stubborn member on the forum that I can think of who is a constant irritant in this regard, but I won't mention who it is.

    I also do not think anyone should ask another member about his "qualifications" to discuss matters unless he provides his own qualifications at the same time.  So let's all make sure we identify which seminary we've attended, if any.  I have not attended seminary.

    Offline McCork

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 07:11:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    I don't see a problem with people posting their opinions on theological matters according to their understanding.  The problem is when another member posts a refutation using authoritative references (which, actually, I don't often see on the forum) and the original poster refutes this with feelings or a completely idiotic "interpretation" of the theological references or an improper use of other theological references.

    The problem is not when members don't know what they don't know but refuse to learn when corrected and will actually contradict themselves in multiple posts and sometimes in just one post while criticizing other members who are consistent in their arguments for being inconsistent.  

    This is when I stop reading the topic altogether.  Frankly, there is only one stubborn member on the forum that I can think of who is a constant irritant in this regard, but I won't mention who it is.

    I also do not think anyone should ask another member about his "qualifications" to discuss matters unless he provides his own qualifications at the same time.  So let's all make sure we identify which seminary we've attended, if any.  I have not attended seminary.


    If someone suddenly asked me what seminary I went to, I would be flattered by the compliment and answer yes or no about it. Desmond immediately avoided answering, and even took it as me being "hostile". It is not difficult to see what is happening here.

    Offline Desmond

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 07:41:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: McCork

    If someone suddenly asked me what seminary I went to, I would be flattered by the compliment and answer yes or no about it. Desmond immediately avoided answering, and even took it as me being "hostile". It is not difficult to see what is happening here.

    Right, except you know I didn't go to seminary and you're just making fun of me.

    What is happening here McCork? Please share.


    Offline TKGS

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 09:47:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond
    Quote from: McCork
    Never mind the word "seminary", your lingo indicates you had some training intended for those who aspire to be priests.


    I studied philosophy if that is what you mean by "lingo", completely unrelated to religion in any way, hence why I say I am not sure even about the basics of the Catholic religion (I am trying to determine them), past my Novus Ordo catechism (which amounts to nothing).


    If you are truly trying to learn the "basics of the Catholic religion", I suggest you start with the Catechism of the Council of Trent.  It can be purchased at a reasonable price from http://miqcenter.com/shop/books/the-church-doctrine-catechisms

    That page also has some other good basic catechisms available.

    Novus Ordo catechisms are worthless sources for learning the Catholic Faith.  Such catechisms teach Protestantism with a little bit of Catholic lingo and a few pictures tossed in to make them look Catholic.

    Offline McCork

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 05:08:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond
    Quote from: McCork


    Never mind the word "seminary", your lingo indicates you had some training intended for those who aspire to be priests.


    I studied philosophy if that is what you mean by "lingo", completely unrelated to religion in any way, hence why I say I am not sure even about the basics of the Catholic religion (I am trying to determine them), past my Novus Ordo catechism (which amounts to nothing).



    I am well aware that philosophy is not religion, but you just avoided answering my question. I asked about whether you took courses designed for Catholic men aspiring to the priesthood, including courses pertaining to Catholicism.

    Offline Nadir

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 05:42:41 PM »
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  • Desmond, I get the sense that McCork has taken a dislike to you. I would guess he is irritated by you.

    In a way I can understand that in view of the fact that, though you say you are "not sure even about the basics of the Catholic religion", you still post in quite a dogmatic manner and seem either not to listen to what somebody is trying to say to you, or you leave the thread behind without acknowledging what you have received from the posters who have attempted to answer your questions.

    Also, you do pull people into line, by telling them to not to derail, when that are not derailing (in my opinion) and you tend to confuse issues, esp. in the OCAC thread. Is your first language English? The reason I ask is that, although you are quite gifted in your expression at times, at other times you seem to use the language in a way I find difficult to follow. It could be me of course...  But the question holds. Are you a native English speaker?

    McCork, I think your question is totally irrelevant. Should not any serious Catholic study their religion without the assumption that they must have attended a seminary to learn it? Seminaries are for the training of priests. Not only priests are expected to know the faith.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline McCork

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 05:58:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Desmond, I get the sense that McCork has taken a dislike to you. I would guess he is irritated by you.


    Your "sense" is from emotion, and results in a rash judgment. It's not a personal thing.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 07:00:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: McCork (Jan 17, 2016, 8:11 pm)
    If someone suddenly asked me what seminary I went to, I would be flattered by the compliment and answer yes or no about it.[....]   It is not difficult to see what is happening here.

    It certainly seems to me that it's not (difficult).  Sooo, in what seminary did you study the traditional Catholic faith, McCork?   You can't really be so arrogant as to be insisting on disclosure of personal information from others without providing the same information about yourself, can you?

    Quote from: TKGS (Jan 17, 2016, 8:00 pm)
    I don't see a problem with people posting their opinions on theological matters according to their understanding. [....] I have not attended seminary.

    Nor I.

    Quote from: Nadir (Jan 18, 2016, 6:42 pm)
    McCork, I think your question is totally irrelevant.  Should not any serious Catholic study their religion without the assumption that they must have attended a seminary to learn it?   Seminaries are for the training of priests.  Not only priests are expected to know the faith.

    Indeed, there are some of us still alive who received the foundation of their Catholic faith before Vatican II.  Not only by religious instruction from parish priests, but also in parochial schools, from nuns wearing their traditional habits, and taught daily classes in "religion"--i.e.: our traditional Catholic faith.

    Offline Desmond

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 07:22:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS

    If you are truly trying to learn the "basics of the Catholic religion", I suggest you start with the Catechism of the Council of Trent.  It can be purchased at a reasonable price from http://miqcenter.com/shop/books/the-church-doctrine-catechisms

    That page also has some other good basic catechisms available.

    Novus Ordo catechisms are worthless sources for learning the Catholic Faith.  Such catechisms teach Protestantism with a little bit of Catholic lingo and a few pictures tossed in to make them look Catholic.


    Thank you for the suggestion. I managed to find online versions of the Catechism of Trent, in various languages including latin. Saved them as Pdf.
    They'll have to do for now, but buying a physical copy would indeed be ideal.

    It has helped me already, regarding the OCAC error.


    Offline Desmond

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 07:27:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: McCork


    I am well aware that philosophy is not religion, but you just avoided answering my question. I asked about whether you took courses designed for Catholic men aspiring to the priesthood, including courses pertaining to Catholicism.


    Sorry I did not express myself clearly.
    What I meant is:

    I did engage in studies that might possibly explain the lingo, as you call it, namely philosophy, but completely unrelated to anything religious.

    So, no, I did not take any course pertaining Catholicism, designed for Catholic men aspiring to the priesthood, or similar.

    The only religious education I have comes from childhood catechesis.

    Now please explain what is bugging you?

    Offline Desmond

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 07:42:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    In a way I can understand that in view


    Yes, the same thing happened in our exchange about Medjugorje.

    Quote
    of the fact that, though you say you are "not sure even about the basics of the Catholic religion",

    In hindsight, it was a mistake to present myself in such a manner.
    It is true I am utterly ignorant about many aspects of the Faith, esp. Liturgy.

    And it is true I am not sure about what actually is orthodox and what is novelty, nor I am able to grasp some theological concepts.

    However, I have realised people take my introductory comment as to mean I am literally unknowledgeable about Catholicism, or anyway ignorant about most things.

    Quote

    you still post in quite a dogmatic manner and seem either not to listen to what somebody is trying to say to you, or you leave the thread behind without acknowledging what you have received from the posters who have attempted to answer your questions.


    Is this related to the Med. thread still?

    Quote
    Also, you do pull people into line, by telling them to not to derail, when that are not derailing (in my opinion)


    It's a matter of basic philosophical argumentation, and logical course of discussion.
    From what I remember I mainly ask politely people to avoid introducing Sedevacantism, or anyway unrelated topics in order to avoid the thread derailing into the usual mess (I read the forum extensively before signing up).
    In fact, it's the norm for most forums.

    Quote
    and you tend to confuse issues, esp. in the OCAC thread.


    Oh, I see. Why not commenting yourself on the topic then?
    You could help the discussion move forward.

     
    Quote
    Is your first language English? The reason I ask is that, although you are quite gifted in your expression at times, at other times you seem to use the language in a way I find difficult to follow. It could be me of course...  But the question holds. Are you a native English speaker?



    I admitted from the get go I am semi illiterate. I can speak and write the rudimentaries of a handful of different languages, yet technically none.

    I see now sharing anything about myself was an ever graver mistake than I previously thought.

    Offline Nadir

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    « Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 11:44:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond


    Quote
    of the fact that, though you say you are "not sure even about the basics of the Catholic religion",

    In hindsight, it was a mistake to present myself in such a manner.
    It is true I am utterly ignorant about many aspects of the Faith, esp. Liturgy.

    And it is true I am not sure about what actually is orthodox and what is novelty, nor I am able to grasp some theological concepts.

    However, I have realised people take my introductory comment as to mean I am literally unknowledgeable about Catholicism, or anyway ignorant about most things.

    None of us knows the totality of the Faith and after all, we are here to share it, no? I don't see why it is a disadvantage for a person who is questioning to premise his questions with what he already knows. But that is not the issue. You have made (what I find to be) offensive statements about the intentions of other persons here (not me).


    Quote
    you still post in quite a dogmatic manner and seem either not to listen to what somebody is trying to say to you, or you leave the thread behind without acknowledging what you have received from the posters who have attempted to answer your questions.


    Is this related to the Med. thread still?

    The Med thread was the one which I first noticed your strange expression and your seeming arrogance. But since then I have observed your manner on other threads in which my only interest was reading.

    Quote
    Also, you do pull people into line, by telling them to not to derail, when that are not derailing (in my opinion)


    It's a matter of basic philosophical argumentation, and logical course of discussion.
    From what I remember I mainly ask politely people to avoid introducing Sedevacantism, or anyway unrelated topics in order to avoid the thread derailing into the usual mess (I read the forum extensively before signing up).
    In fact, it's the norm for most forums.

    I too am against derailments. If it's a threaad I'm involved in, I will try to get back on track. But there are times when an aside is important.  

    Quote
    and you tend to confuse issues, esp. in the OCAC thread.


    Oh, I see. Why not commenting yourself on the topic then?
    You could help the discussion move forward.

    I have made a couple/few comments on that thread but I just found the argumentation  to be too convoluted for my simple mind, and really I have little to offer on this topic. Besides, in the last few days I have had altogether too much to say here.

     
    Quote
    Is your first language English? The reason I ask is that, although you are quite gifted in your expression at times, at other times you seem to use the language in a way I find difficult to follow. It could be me of course...  But the question holds. Are you a native English speaker?



    I admitted from the get go I am semi illiterate. I can speak and write the rudimentaries of a handful of different languages, yet technically none.

    I understand if you do not wish to answer my question.

    You can hardly be included among the semi-literate, though I see you have  used American jargon here (picked up on CathInfo).  


    I see now sharing anything about myself was an ever graver mistake than I previously thought.
    Well, you are anonymous, are you not? Every word you write here you share something of yourself. I hope you don't think I am attacking you. I am not. But I just thought that in view of McCork strange question I would put in my 2 cents. I found your introduction very interesting and decided at that time to pray for you. Simple as that.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Desmond

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    On an alleged requirement of formal theological training for posting
    « Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 08:31:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir


    You can hardly be included among the semi-literate, though I see you have  used American jargon here (picked up on CathInfo).  




    I did answer you. I do not have any proper native language, and I am semi literate in all the ones I can (barely) speak.

    If you notice I know some vocabulary, even higher/technical one, because I picked it up by reading and studying, yet I may ignore basic rules of grammar and syntax.

    I use american jargon as I use british jargon, they are alien to me just the same, as much as dialects from other languages I may be able to express myself in.

    Quote
    Well, you are anonymous, are you not?


    The point is that my forum persona is compromised. My humble honesty has been mistaken for simplicity and naivete, so that many, including YOU, do not see me as an equal but, at worst, someone to be schooled or, at best, to cared for and guided.



    Quote

    I have made a couple/few comments on that thread but I just found the argumentation  to be too convoluted


    Yes, I've seen them. But since I "tend to confuse issues, esp. in the OCAC thread", I thought it would be nice if you could clear them up.

    For instance you said "they are inactive members". Fascinating, where did you get this definition?


    Quote
    your seeming arrogance


    Who is the arrogant one? The one who dares object to opinions presented as facts, or the one so full of him/herself he demands other people to take them as certain?

    The one unsure about himself being right, or the one so sure he takes offense in others disagreeing?

    Is it arrogance to speak plainly and directly, at the cost of coming off as rude (in our sensitive day and age), or is it not more arrogant to deviously use every rhetorical trick in the book, incl. captatio benevolentiae, arguments ab auctoritate (with the authority being themselves!), feigning simplicity and ignorance, and son on and on?

    With disregard for objective truth, caring about either one's public image or even worse, being confirmed right.

    Only outwardly non arrogant, if not seemingly pious and humble, but in stead most wicked and products of a rotten ego.