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Offline Graham

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old women oracularity
« on: October 16, 2011, 09:32:44 PM »
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  • Several times in my relatively short life older women have said things to me - and about me - that were startling and that seemed inordinately significant, prescient, or weirdly mystical. For example, one time a woman in a crowded subway car loudly declared me an extraterrestrial. There's no need to tell me that only a crazy old lady would do something like that - I know that; all the same, it felt and still feels like an oracular event - whatever it truly means (oracles always need interpretation). Another example: I was returning to civilization after having spent several weeks alone in the wilderness, and I ran into an old German immigrant out for a walk. She stopped me and looked at me knowingly. We had a short and very weird conversation about Jakobsweg (St. James' Way), but mostly what I recall is how she looked at me, like she knew exactly what I am, and was trying to explain to me what I am, just by looking at me. And in a limited way she succeeded.

    There are a couple more I could relate. Am I just credulous, or do some older women - and more than one might suspect - have a peculiar oracular gift?

    Offline ellembee

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    old women oracularity
    « Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 12:09:27 AM »
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  • Quote
    but mostly what I recall is how she looked at me, like she knew exactly what I am, and was trying to explain to me what I am, just by looking at me. And in a limited way she succeeded.


    What did you think she knew about you, and what do you mean by 'what I am'? You're a man, a Catholic, etc etc -- but was there something particular about you that she noticed or called attention to?

    I'm asking because it's not that I think old women have oracular gifts; rather, many elderly women have an uncanny ability to 'read' body language and personality very well. Depending on how you were holding yourself, conducting yourself, speaking, what you were carrying, etc, it's entirely possible you may have run across some rather astute older ladies who know how to 'read others' very well, without it being oracular in nature. :)

    For example, once I was in a train station, and an elderly lady sat down beside me and said 'don't be anxious or frightened, dear, things will be alright". I wondered how she could have known I was either, until I realized that the way I was sitting, the look on my face, and just the general tone of my body language would have been picked up by someone who'd made a lifetime habit of studying human nature.


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 08:51:57 PM »
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  • I have a different take on this -- I think a lot of middle-aged and older women become very lonely and like to imagine themselves as being wiser than they are.  They begin to pose as oracular, wise old owls.  This becomes their way of getting attention, the way that they used to get attention through their looks and bodies.  But in some cases, especially outside the Church, it's totally phony.  

    No, I don't think old women are any more predisposed to being oracular than anyone else.  I think they are more predisposed to vanity than almost anyone else, though, because it is often terrifying for vain women when they see their youthful sexual power disappearing and age creeping up on them; and women tend to be more susceptible to vanity than men, in my opinion ( although not by as wide a margin as some may think, LOTS of men are vain ).  When this happens they naturally try to replace that physical power, which once got them lots of attention, with another kind of power.  They become "wise women" i.e. white witches.  At this point they may stop focusing on men, and may pose as leaders of youth, teachers in general, or counsellors of other women... Think of the neighborhood friendly New Age granny whose house all the kids go to after school to eat cookies...  A very bad situation.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 08:57:35 PM »
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  • Librarians.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 09:00:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Several times in my relatively short life older women have said things to me - and about me - that were startling and that seemed inordinately significant, prescient, or weirdly mystical. For example, one time a woman in a crowded subway car loudly declared me an extraterrestrial.

    Am I just credulous, or do some older women - and more than one might suspect - have a peculiar oracular gift?


    I don't know...  Will you tell us where you were born?


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 09:04:17 PM »
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  • The weird sisters were oracular, weren't they?

    The most I can recall in recent memory that was anything like that was a evangelical lady (could tell from the bumper stickers) that I pumped the gas for.

    She said something about "you're wearing a crown of glory" or something like that.  I was doing a lot better back then, to be sure.

    Offline Graham

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    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 10:40:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: ellembee
    Quote
    but mostly what I recall is how she looked at me, like she knew exactly what I am, and was trying to explain to me what I am, just by looking at me. And in a limited way she succeeded.


    What did you think she knew about you, and what do you mean by 'what I am'? You're a man, a Catholic, etc etc -- but was there something particular about you that she noticed or called attention to?


    To be honest, I suspect it's somehow related to the other episode I described, the 'extraterrestrial' one (she actually used the word "alien", but I put extraterrestrial to avoid confusion). The two episodes are linked in my mind: I can't think of one without the other.

    Quote from: ellembee
    I'm asking because it's not that I think old women have oracular gifts; rather, many elderly women have an uncanny ability to 'read' body language and personality very well. Depending on how you were holding yourself, conducting yourself, speaking, what you were carrying, etc, it's entirely possible you may have run across some rather astute older ladies who know how to 'read others' very well, without it being oracular in nature. :)

    For example, once I was in a train station, and an elderly lady sat down beside me and said 'don't be anxious or frightened, dear, things will be alright". I wondered how she could have known I was either, until I realized that the way I was sitting, the look on my face, and just the general tone of my body language would have been picked up by someone who'd made a lifetime habit of studying human nature.


    I don't like this explanation - it makes it sound as though these women were like Sherlock Holmes. The idea that there are any significant number of women who study human nature as empiricists is one I can't give much credence to. On the other hand, the idea that some older women - maybe even a noteworthy percentage - have a mind that, as it were, shades gradually into the psychic atmosphere around them, giving them a confused, weak, intermittent oracular power ... is something that makes perfect sense to me. As funny as that may sound to you.

    To put it another way. Sometimes it may simply be an experienced woman who has tallied up a number of physical clues and formed a picture of your personality. I think, though, that sometimes the personality impresses itself directly without any need for sensory mediation in the form of physical clues. And I think older women may be peculiarly susceptible to such things.

    Another: I remember a story a priest once told me about his youth. He was visiting a small town with a friend, walking along the cobblestone street, when an older woman approached them, seized them both by the arms, and declared that one of them would become a priest.

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 03:57:29 AM »
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  • That is pretty weird, Tele, being told you have a crown of glory, if you were in fact in a state of grace.

    However, if what I know about the devil means anything -- and I know a lot, not to toot my own horn -- sometimes he will "inspire" people to mislead us or to puff up our pride.  Growing up I was constantly told I was special and a genius and brilliant and all along the devil had me right where he wanted me.

    We live in a world that is brimming in mortal sin.  When people are in mortal sin, they are essentially puppets of the devil.  Without necessarily being possessed, they will often do and say exactly what he wants.  Rock stars would be a good example of this; they aren't necessarily possessed, but in their lyrics they are channeling the devil, almost all of them.

    So it doesn't surprise me that people are coming up to Catholics on the street and seem to "know things."  I would say this is more of a witchy, negative thing than anything good.  We're not talking about Padre Pio here, reading our minds in the confessional, but about non-Catholics, for the most part.

    It depends on who the "oracle" is.  If a woman who I respect as a good Catholic had a premonition of some kind about me, it would have weight.  But with what certain others say, I remain skeptical.  People are far too superstitious these days, they forget that even true seers and prophets were RIGOUROUSLY questioned and investigated by the Church for every word they uttered.  You can't just believe prophetic-sounding stuff unquestioningly, you have to remain on  your guard.



    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 04:17:46 AM »
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  • Graham said:
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    I don't like this explanation - it makes it sound as though these women were like Sherlock Holmes. The idea that there are any significant number of women who study human nature as empiricists is one I can't give much credence to. On the other hand, the idea that some older women - maybe even a noteworthy percentage - have a mind that, as it were, shades gradually into the psychic atmosphere around them, giving them a confused, weak, intermittent oracular power ... is something that makes perfect sense to me. As funny as that may sound to you.

    To put it another way. Sometimes it may simply be an experienced woman who has tallied up a number of physical clues and formed a picture of your personality. I think, though, that sometimes the personality impresses itself directly without any need for sensory mediation in the form of physical clues. And I think older women may be peculiarly susceptible to such things.


    Yeah, even if it's demonically inspired, oracular moments are still based on spiritual perception, not on psychological observation.  Like the woman saying Tele had a "crown of glory," whether he did or not, there's nothing in his body language that could have tipped her off about that.  If it were true, she would have seen a certain glow that he had, she would have perceived his soul somehow in the state of grace. But my hunch is that that was an inspiration of the devil.  While Tele was in a state of grace, you don't get crowns of glory until you're dead, from what I understand.  For instance, you can't get the crown of virginity until you die a virgin...  It sounds like it could have been an attempt to puff up his pride, which frankly I can see is happening constantly in his life.

    There are many tricks the evil one can pull.  Another example, on the subject of oracular pronouncements, is that we can be thinking something that is wrong; but then the devil will send us someone or something to confirm our bad thought, a sign or a wonder.  You will hear a line in a rock song that relates exactly to what you're feeling at that moment and urges you to make a radical change in your life, such as leaving your husband and following your dream to go to Uruguay to be with your drug-running boyfriend, which in turn further puts you into the chains of Satan.

    We can be so self-obsessed that we get ego gratification when someone notices us and seems to care about what we're thinking.  We WANT to believe what they say, because we want to be special.  Graham apparently wants to be Ziggy Stardust  :cowboy:

    Something else I've seen that the devil does, is he convinces people they are martyrs.  Then they go out and irritate everyone, and when they end up isolated, they think it's because they're martyrs, instead of seeing that they are acting like twits.  I'm not talking about Tele, by the way, I have a Feeneyite in mind.  This is a masterful way to stifle spiritual development in people.  But with true humility, you can't be fooled this way, because you will never be impressed by whatever sufferings you undergo, you'll always be more impressed by Christ's sufferings and yours will always be minuscule in comparison.

    These are just some various ways that the devil can use oracular-sounding gobbeldygook to influence us for the worse.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 04:24:24 AM »
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  • Was this the old woman Graham?  Sure, she looks pretty young here, but maybe she was a shapeshifter --



    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 06:33:27 AM »
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  • Graham,

    I was serious when I asked you where you were born.  Was it earth?  If so, why in the world would you think an old lady on a crowded city subway car declaring you an alien being is somehow an oracle?  Why did it "feel like an oracular event?"

    You should take the warnings others have given you above very seriously because it seems that you are in danger of being seduced by the modern paranormal hype and the Satanic mysticism that has become so very popular--especially during the month of October.

    It sound as if you are being tempted by Satan to abandon true Faith in God to chase after fantasies.


    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    « Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 08:38:42 AM »
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  • You guys take women too seriously.  :laugh1:
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!

    Offline Graham

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    « Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 10:42:52 AM »
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  • Well, yet another woman has told me she gets the sense that I'm from another world. This one was fairly sane by female standards.


    Offline Graham

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    « Reply #13 on: December 19, 2011, 10:51:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76

    We can be so self-obsessed that we get ego gratification when someone notices us and seems to care about what we're thinking.  We WANT to believe what they say, because we want to be special.  Graham apparently wants to be Ziggy Stardust  :cowboy:


    I think we can relate on this. I've thought ruefully for a few years that I effectively belong to another species, and it is somewhat flattering to have other people confirm it. It's every thorough-going narcissist's dream, really.

    Offline Graham

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    « Reply #14 on: December 19, 2011, 05:57:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Graham,

    I was serious when I asked you where you were born.  Was it earth?  If so, why in the world would you think an old lady on a crowded city subway car declaring you an alien being is somehow an oracle?  Why did it "feel like an oracular event?"


    Well, when I say I felt it oracular, I didn't mean I think it's literally true. These things have to be interpreted; women are vague and associative at the best of times. Alien could be a metaphor for being in a different state from others.

    Quote from: TKGS
    You should take the warnings others have given you above very seriously because it seems that you are in danger of being seduced by the modern paranormal hype and the Satanic mysticism that has become so very popular--especially during the month of October.


    I do take them seriously. If there's a danger to my soul here it's something much more quotidian than seduction by paranormal hype - more to do with pride.

    Quote from: TKGS
    It sound as if you are being tempted by Satan to abandon true Faith in God to chase after fantasies.


    No, no, have no fear. I appreciate your concern, and sorry I took so long to get around to responding.

     

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