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Author Topic: NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?  (Read 2979 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
« on: September 18, 2012, 06:48:20 PM »
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3

    A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife

    By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of Scripture: “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife ...’ ”

    The faded papyrus fragment is smaller than a business card, with eight lines on one side, in black ink legible under a magnifying glass. Just below the line about Jesus having a wife, the papyrus includes a second provocative clause that purportedly says, “she will be able to be my disciple.”

    The finding was made public in Rome on Tuesday at an international meeting of Coptic scholars by Karen L. King, a historian who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity.

    The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, Dr. King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions.

    Even with many questions unsettled, the discovery could reignite the debate over whether Jesus was married, whether Mary Magdalene was his wife and whether he had a female disciple. These debates date to the early centuries of Christianity, scholars say. But they are relevant today, when global Christianity is roiling over the place of women in ministry and the boundaries of marriage.

    The discussion is particularly animated in the Roman Catholic Church, where despite calls for change, the Vatican has reiterated the teaching that the priesthood cannot be opened to women and married men because of the model set by Jesus.

    Dr. King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday . She left the next day for Rome to deliver her paper on the find on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies.

    She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said.

    But the discovery is exciting, Dr. King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose.

    “This fragment suggests that some early Christians had a tradition that Jesus was married,” Dr. King said. “There was, we already know, a controversy in the second century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.”

    Dr. King first learned about what she calls “The Gospel of Jesus’s Wife” when she received an e-mail in 2010 from a private collector who asked her to translate it. Dr. King, 58, specializes in Coptic literature, and has written books on the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary of Magdala, Gnosticism and women in antiquity.

    The owner, who has a collection of Greek, Coptic and Arabic papyri, is not willing to be identified by name, nationality or location, because, Dr. King said, “He doesn’t want to be hounded by people who want to buy this.”

    When, where or how the fragment was discovered is unknown. The collector acquired it in a batch of papyri in 1997 from the previous owner, a German. It came with a handwritten note in German that names a professor of Egyptology in Berlin, now deceased, and cited him calling the fragment “the sole example” of a text in which Jesus claims a wife.

    The owner carried the fragment to the Divinity School in December 2011 and left it with Dr. King. She said she was initially suspicious, but it looked promising enough to explore. Three months later, she carried the fragment in her red handbag to New York to show it to two colleagues, both papyrologists: Roger Bagnall, director of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, at New York University, and AnneMarie Luijendijk, an associate professor of religion at Princeton University.

    They examined the scrap under sharp magnification. It was very small — only 4 by 8 centimeters. The lettering was splotchy and uneven, the hand of an amateur, but not unusual for the time period, when many Christians were poor and persecuted.

    It was written in Coptic, an Egyptian language that uses Greek characters — and more precisely, in Sahidic Coptic, a dialect from southern Egypt, Dr. Luijendijk said in an interview.

    What convinced them it was probably genuine was the fading of the ink on the papyrus fibers, and traces of ink adhered to the bent fibers at the torn edges. The back side is so faint that only five words are visible, one only partly: “my moth[er],” “three,” “forth which.”

    “It would be impossible to forge,” said Dr. Luijendijk, who contributed to Dr. King’s paper.

    Dr. Bagnall reasoned that a forger would have had to be expert in Coptic grammar, handwriting and ideas. Most forgeries he has seen were nothing more than gibberish. And if it were a forgery intended to cause a sensation or make someone rich, why would it have lain in obscurity for so many years?

    “It’s hard to construct a scenario that is at all plausible in which somebody fakes something like this. The world is not really crawling with crooked papyrologists,” Dr. Bagnall said.

    The piece is torn into a rough rectangle, so that the docuмent is missing its adjoining text on the left, right, top and bottom — most likely the work of a dealer who divided up a larger piece to maximize his profit, Dr. Bagnall said.

    Much of the context, therefore, is missing. But Dr. King was struck by phrases in the fragment like “My mother gave to me life,” and “Mary is worthy of it,” which resemble snippets from the Gospels of Thomas and Mary. Experts believe those were written in the late second century and translated into Coptic. She surmises that this fragment is also copied from a second century Greek text.

    The meaning of the words, “my wife,” is beyond question, Dr. King said. “These words can mean nothing else.” The text beyond “my wife” is cut off.

    Dr. King did not have the ink dated using carbon testing. She said it would require scraping off too much, destroying the relic. She still plans to have the ink tested by spectroscopy, which could roughly determine its age by its chemical composition.

    Dr. King submitted her paper to The Harvard Theological Review, which asked three scholars to review it. Two questioned its authenticity, but they had seen only low-resolution photographs of the fragment and were unaware that expert papyrologists had seen the actual item and judged it to be genuine, Dr. King said. One of the two questioned the grammar, translation and interpretation.

    Ariel Shisha-Halevy, an eminent Coptic linguist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was consulted, and responded in an e-mail in September, “I believe — on the basis of language and grammar — the text is authentic.”

    Major doubts allayed, The Review plans to publish Dr. King’s article in its January issue.

    The owner has offered to donate the papyrus to Harvard if the university buys a “substantial part of his collection,” Dr. King said, which Harvard is considering. She said she will “push him to come forward,” in part to avoid stoking conspiracy theories.

    The notion that Jesus had a wife was the central conceit of the best seller and movie “The Da Vinci Code.” But Dr. King said she wants nothing to do with the code or its author: “At least, don’t say this proves Dan Brown was right.”



    Offline Sigismund

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 07:27:13 PM »
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  • There are heretical "gospels" that say all sorts of things.  Like most, this one is four hundred years removed from Our Lord's earthly life.  Why would even a non-believer take this seriously?
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline poche

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 05:52:17 AM »
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  • why waste your time on that nonsense?

    Offline TKGS

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 06:21:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    There are heretical "gospels" that say all sorts of things.  Like most, this one is four hundred years removed from Our Lord's earthly life.  Why would even a non-believer take this seriously?


    Because non-believers earnestly desire to destroy the Church and they will use any stick they happen to find with which to beat her.

    This is no different than the claims that Jesus was not actually born on December 25th, in the year 1 B.C.

    Offline Elizabeth

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 06:52:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus






    The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, Dr. King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions.











    When, where or how the fragment was discovered is unknown. The collector acquired it in a batch of papyri in 1997 from the previous owner, a German. It came with a handwritten note in German that names a professor of Egyptology in Berlin, now deceased, and cited him calling the fragment “the sole example” of a text in which Jesus claims a wife.

    .






    Well, this piece from the NY Times, complete with a woman Harvard scholar, and paragraphs of serious BS has me convinced.  Now I am convinced of nearly every kooky, paranoid conspiracy theory I've ever heard of.  The article is so loaded with psy-op I can't adequately break it down.  

    "She carried the fragment in her red handbag..."  


    Offline Belloc

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 07:11:44 AM »
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  • Women is an idiot.....an desperate for funds.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Elizabeth

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 07:17:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    Women is an idiot.....an desperate for funds.....


    No, she is funded by the Luce Foundation, of unlimited resources.  The Luce Foundation is an extremely powerful force in the world.

    Offline Lybus

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 07:44:29 AM »
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  • Well, Jesus Christ IS married to the Church and the Church DOES follow him as the Disciple so TECHNICALLY.......he does have a wife   :reporter:

    In regards to being a responsible man, would it be interesting to learn, after six years of accuмulating all the wisdom you could, that you had it right all alon


    Offline Belloc

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 07:48:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Quote from: Belloc
    Women is an idiot.....an desperate for funds.....


    No, she is funded by the Luce Foundation, of unlimited resources.  The Luce Foundation is an extremely powerful force in the world.


    ah, then there we have it...
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 07:53:36 AM »
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  • she did not have hte materials, ink tested, and a lot of cloak/dagger people, names missing, dates missing, fragments missing, anounymous people.....what a crock...
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Elizabeth

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 04:43:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    she did not have hte materials, ink tested, and a lot of cloak/dagger people, names missing, dates missing, fragments missing, anounymous people.....what a crock...


    I know, right?  That's why the red purse likely means something.

     And she's like the first female at her prestigious position, and a Luce Fellow.  These are the warlocks who dictate what people think about, the cultural facet of global control.

     They decide What Is Art. Who edits the news outlets. Who gets their book published.  So I reckon Ms. King is a high priestess of some kind, and I'm not joking.  Her prestige is enormous.

    One of my children said this subject was discussed in school today!  




    Offline Sigismund

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 06:14:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Sigismund
    There are heretical "gospels" that say all sorts of things.  Like most, this one is four hundred years removed from Our Lord's earthly life.  Why would even a non-believer take this seriously?


    Because non-believers earnestly desire to destroy the Church and they will use any stick they happen to find with which to beat her.

    This is no different than the claims that Jesus was not actually born on December 25th, in the year 1 B.C.


    No, it is vastly different from that.  It doesn't matter what day Our Lrod was born on, that I can see.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Loriann

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 06:32:23 PM »
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  • Out of context, it means absolutely nothing even if verified to the right time period (which it isn't).  Sadly, many of our earliest manuscripts of the BCE and Biblical books were torn in pieces, as the dealers paid per piece, instead of putting a premium on the large manuscript.
    I am not alone, for the father is with me.

    Offline Elizabeth

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 09:46:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Sigismund
    There are heretical "gospels" that say all sorts of things.  Like most, this one is four hundred years removed from Our Lord's earthly life.  Why would even a non-believer take this seriously?


    Because non-believers earnestly desire to destroy the Church and they will use any stick they happen to find with which to beat her.

    This is no different than the claims that Jesus was not actually born on December 25th, in the year 1 B.C.


    No, it is vastly different from that.  It doesn't matter what day Our Lrod was born on, that I can see.  


    I agree.  I care about the date of the Nativity, but this is a much more bold blasphemy.  This is not about mere non-believers, it is about very powerful, active Luciferians whose work is to usher in the Antichrist and drag as many souls to Hell as possible.

    Offline Cuthbert

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    NYT: The Gospel of Jesus Wife?
    « Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 12:38:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Sigismund
    There are heretical "gospels" that say all sorts of things.  Like most, this one is four hundred years removed from Our Lord's earthly life.  Why would even a non-believer take this seriously?


    Because non-believers earnestly desire to destroy the Church and they will use any stick they happen to find with which to beat her.

    This is no different than the claims that Jesus was not actually born on December 25th, in the year 1 B.C.


    No, it is vastly different from that.  It doesn't matter what day Our Lrod was born on, that I can see.  


    I agree.  I care about the date of the Nativity, but this is a much more bold blasphemy.  This is not about mere non-believers, it is about very powerful, active Luciferians whose work is to usher in the Antichrist and drag as many souls to Hell as possible.



    Precisely, we are now witnessing the externalisation of the hierarchy as the arch-occultist Alice Bailey put it. It has become so obvious, that even many of the neo-pagans can sense the atmosphere of doom & horror that has come to pervade society now. I don't watch television, but I sometimes visit relatives who do, & it's astonishing how putrescent it is now, it's only a matter of time before they start showing pornographic films, most of the programmes (how appropriate a word, most people now emulate what they see portrayed on the screen of the idiot's lantern, the mighty goggle-box, but I digress) & advertisements are nothing more than very lightly censored versions of that already.

     The other thing, pertaining more directly to the subject at hand is the glorification of the occult. I was astonished to find so many programmes depicting vampires, witches, mediums, werewolves &c., every black art, everything having to do with the preternatural has now got its own programme to seep into & mould young minds into a shape of the devil's choosing. How many children & young people will be enticed to meddle with sorcery, spells & necromancy &c., because they saw something of the sort on television?

     How many of these in turn wil thereby open themselves up to demonic possession or obsession, bringing a curse onto their houses? In reading the various prophecies regarding the coming Chastisement, I have read several times that God will destroy the advanced technology that now exists, bringing everything back to a level more like that of the early 19th century if not earlier. Considering the effects of television goes a long way toward helping one understand why this should be so.