Author Topic: Non-Catholic Weddings and Funerals (Read 4460 times)

2Vermont · « **on:** April 27, 2014, 08:16:16 AM »

I know we have discussed this before. If I remember correctly, the conclusion was that the Church does allow for attendance at non-Catholic weddings and funerals. Does anyone know why the Church sees these differently than other non-Catholic assemblies? Is it because they do not necessarily promote the non-Catholic religion?

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2014, 10:33:10 AM »

Here are Bouscaren and Ellis on the issue, emphases mine:

Quote

It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reason, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology.

2Vermont · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2014, 04:15:28 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Here are Bouscaren and Ellis on the issue, emphases mine:

Quote
It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reason, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology.

Thanks Mith. I remember you posting this before. I guess I'm still wondering why the Church sees funerals and weddings differently than any other non-Catholic assembly.

Ambrose · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2014, 04:23:01 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Mithrandylan
Here are Bouscaren and Ellis on the issue, emphases mine:

Quote
It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reason, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology.

Thanks Mith. I remember you posting this before. I guess I'm still wondering why the Church sees funerals and weddings differently than any other non-Catholic assembly.

Weddings and funerals meet the requirement of "(1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect."

Thurifer7 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 27, 2014, 05:38:59 PM »

What about if you played the organ for pay at a non-Catholic wedding?

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** April 27, 2014, 06:00:51 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Thanks Mith. I remember you posting this before. I guess I'm still wondering why the Church sees funerals and weddings differently than any other non-Catholic assembly.

It's simple, really.

Is it not true that the average Protestant (for example), makes a "bigger deal" out of a wedding than, say, attendance at one of their Sunday services? Of course they do. That's common sense.

So "civility", social obligation, and/or respect enters into it. Someone is going to be very upset if a close relative boycotts their son's wedding, for example. And with funerals it would be even more so. What if an apostate parent dies? How would it look if one of the parent's sons didn't attend the funeral?

Meanwhile, these same Protestants would be perfectly content with you attending your Traditional Catholic Mass every Sunday, while they go to their Lutheran service.

So there's obviously a difference between the two. Most non-Catholics would be offended by the boycott of a wedding or funeral, and most non-Catholics understand that you go to your own Church every Sunday.

There has to be a way for a Trad Catholic to show that he is a decent man, he has a certain minimum respect for his family, but he is also a faithful Catholic who can't condone false worship. As always, the Church has provided for us here.

2Vermont · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2014, 04:30:08 AM »

Thanks guys. That does help a lot.

Conspiracy_Factist · « **Reply #7 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:16:31 AM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Here are Bouscaren and Ellis on the issue, emphases mine:

Quote
It is illicit for Catholics in any way to assist actively or take part in sacred worship of non-Catholics (c. 1258/1). Passive or merely material presence, for sake of civil courtesy, duty or respect, for a grave reason which in case of doubt should have the approval of the Bishop may be tolerated at the funerals, weddings and other such celebration of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or of scandal (c. 1258/2).

1. Active Participation. A person would participate actively in the worship of non-Catholics if, besides being physically present in the place where such worship was being conducted, he placed some positive act of worship in common with the non-Catholic worshipers. Such co-operation would be formal if it were done with the intention of really taking part in the worship; it would be merely material if done without that intention but for some other reason, for example mere civility or friendship. All active participation is forbidden by the first paragraph of this canon, whether it be formal or merely material.

2. Passive Presence. The second paragraph speaks of "merely passive or material presence." A person is passively present if he is present without joining in any positive act of worship; his presence is voluntary but he abstains from any positive action. It is conceivable that even merely passive presence might be accompanied by an internal intention to approve, assent to, or encourage the non-Catholic worship; if that were true it would be formal cooperation in an evil act, and forbidden by the natural law. The canon supposes that this is not the case, and consequently that the passive presence is merely material. Even then such presence is not simply permitted because, though not intrinsically wrong by reason of it's object (the thing done) it is likely to be wrong by reason of it's circuмstances or consequences. Hence three conditions are laid down for it's licitness: (1) That there be a grave reason based on considerations of civil courtesy, duty, or respect; (2) that in case of doubt the sufficiency of the reason be approved by the Bishop; (3) that there be no danger either of perversion or scandal. The functions at which such presence is then permitted are given by way of example, "funerals, weddings and other similar celebrations." Applications of this canon are very numerous and varied; their discussion pertains rather to moral theology.

I'm forced to attend my father in laws novus order funeral unless I want a divorce, I'll just sit there and pray,
do you think being a pall bearer or reading a speech my brother in law wrote out would violate
"abstains from any positive action."
I told them i wouldn't do it but just wondering what you guys think.
God have mercy

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #8 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:32:45 AM »

Go to your father in laws funeral. It is act of charity. Be a pall bearer too.
You can politely decline to do reading or eulogy. During Service pray the Rosary.
Also. Imitate Christ.

Also when you and your family are sitting in pews, you could stuff missalettes with old Latin sspx mass bulletins.

That's what I do.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:36:48 AM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

Go to your father in laws funeral. It is act of charity. Be a pall bearer too.
You can politely decline to do reading or eulogy. During Service pray the Rosary.
Also. Imitate Christ.

Also when you and your family are sitting in pews, you could stuff missalettes with old Latin sspx mass bulletins.

That's what I do.

Great post. It is one of our beautiful acts of corporal mercy to bury the dead.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #10 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:37:20 AM »

Life is short. Make peace. Go to your brother in law and apologize.
Be pall bearer. Do this for your wife.

Be example of our faith pray the rosary during the service.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:40:09 AM »

Thank you, Elizabeth.

Matthew · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:43:02 AM »

Quote from: gooch

I'm forced to attend my father in laws novus order funeral unless I want a divorce, I'll just sit there and pray,
do you think being a pall bearer or reading a speech my brother in law wrote out would violate
"abstains from any positive action."
I told them i wouldn't do it but just wondering what you guys think.
God have mercy

Whoah Nellie --

You're the first person in this thread to apply "Non-Catholic" to the Novus Ordo.

Those quoted rules apply to non-Catholic services. Virtually non-Catholic isn't quite the same thing :)

The Novus Ordo is tricky, because it's supposed to be Catholic on paper, even though in practice it's very much like a Protestant service.

You can't dictate how your father-in-law deals with the Crisis in the Church (up to and including "ignoring it altogether"). He died in the Novus Ordo, and that's going to determine the location of his funeral. Being a Pall Bearer is "burying the dead", a corporal work of mercy.

Normally speeches by laymen are not part of a traditional funeral service, but at this sentimental love session called a Novus Ordo funeral it would still be better for a man to speak than a woman.

The funeral service isn't a Mass anyhow, right? Bringing up "gifts" during the Offertory at a N.O. Mass would be very bad.

However, your family should respect your beliefs and not force you to get too involved with a N.O. Mass. On this heading, it's important that the rest of your life is integrally, solidly Traditional Catholic so no one can even think about calling you a hypocrite. If you do other things (and visit other places) a Trad should be ashamed of, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

But if your whole life is Traditional Catholic, they really can't expect you to play Novus Ordo.

It would be like expecting Phil Robertson (of Duck Dynasty fame) to direct traffic during Manhattan's rush hour. It's just not what he's about.

Matthew · « **Reply #13 on:** May 07, 2014, 11:46:58 AM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

Life is short. Make peace. Go to your brother in law and apologize.
Be pall bearer. Do this for your wife.

Be example of our faith pray the rosary during the service.

Another good point.

Be a good example. When standing up for the truth and the Faith, make it look like you don't enjoy being the odd man out. Some people truly enjoy the attention that comes with being "singular" or different, they are naturally proud and/or contrary, it fits their Choleric temperament, etc.

People can see through that.

But if it "costs you" to witness to the truth, people can see that too. They can see when you're genuine, and they will be likely to respect that.

The saints, if they found themselves in your position, would never compromise, but they would be genuinely sad, shedding actual tears for the heretics they were forced to sit next to. They would strive to win over as many as possible to the Catholic Faith by showing true Catholic charity.

Just like children can easily understand when you discipline them out of love, vs. when you're just going with nature and venting your temper at them. They will love and respect you in the former case, but resent you for the latter.

OHCA · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2014, 12:04:52 PM »

Every NO funeral that I have ever attended has purported to be a "Mass." Attending an NO funeral is worse than attending a prot funeral because of the element of sacrilege. I'm not saying what I would do or what others should do (tough situation)--but objectively an NO funeral mass is a sacrilege.

Thus, I cannot hunky-dorily say go. As for family & others not understanding--none of us chose to follow Christ to make our friends happy or because it's an easy path. I think it's sinful to attend. I am weak & I may would even attend myself. But I must say that I think it's a sin.