Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: new rites of the Sacraments  (Read 1048 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jman123

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
  • Reputation: +149/-15
  • Gender: Male
new rites of the Sacraments
« on: September 09, 2012, 11:33:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I found this on another forum. This man is defending the new rites of the Sacraments.    is there any fallacy in it?


    =========================================
    1) The Church may change Her rites in any way She sees fit as long as the substance is preserved.

    Quote from: Session 21, Pius IV/Council of Trent, D931
    It [the Council] declares furthermore that this power has always been in the Church, that in the administration of the sacraments, preserving their substance, she may determine or change whatever she may judge to be more expedient for the benefit of those who receive them or for the veneration of the sacraments, according to the variety of circuмstances, times, and places.

    Quote from: Super Quibusdam, Clement VI, D570m
    In the tenth place, if you have believed and still believe that the Roman Pontiff regarding the administration of the sacraments of the Church, can tolerate and even permit different rites of the Church of Christ, in order that they may be saved, provided that those matters are always preserved which belong to the integrity and necessity of the sacraments.

    Quote from: Ex Quo, Pius X, D2147a
    ... the Catholic doctrine on the most Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist is not left untouched when it is taught inflexibly that the opinion can be accepted which maintains that among the Greeks the words of consecration do not produce an effect unless preceded by that prayer which they call epiclesis, although, on the other hand, it is well known that to the Church there belongs no right whatsoever to innovate anything touching on the substance of the sacraments ...

    Quote from: Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII, D2301
    And for these sacraments instituted by Christ the Lord in the course of the ages the Church has not, and could not substitute other sacraments, since, as the Council of Trent teaches, the seven sacraments of the New Law have all been instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord, and the Church has no power over the "substance of the sacraments," that is, over those things which, with the sources of divine revelation as witnesses, Christ the Lord Himself decreed to be preserved in a sacramental sign.


    2) The substance of the rite is the sacramental intention, form, and matter.

    Quote from: Exultate Deo, Eugenius IV/Council of Florence, D695
    All these sacraments are dispensed in three ways, namely, by things as the matter, by words as the form, and by the person of the minister conferring the sacrament with the intention of doing as the Church does; if any of these is lacking the sacrament is not fulfilled.

    Quote from: Apostolicae Curae, Leo XIII, D1963
    In the examination of any rite for the effecting and administering of Sacraments, distinction is rightly made between the part which is ceremonial and that which is essential, the latter being usually called the "matter and form".


    3) The proper intention required for a sacrament is expressed when the minister pronounces the sacramental form.

    Quote from: Summ. Theo. III, Q. 64, A. 8
    I answer that, When a thing is indifferent to many uses, it must needs be determined to one, if that one has to be effected. Now those things which are done in the sacraments, can be done with various intent; for instance, washing with water, which is done in baptism, may be ordained to bodily cleanliness, to the health of the body, to amusement, and many other similar things. Consequently, it needs to be determined to one purpose, i.e. the sacramental effect, by the intention of him who washes. And this intention is expressed by the words which are pronounced in the sacraments; for instance the words, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father," etc.

    ...

    Consequently, others with better reason hold that the minister of a sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is; while in the words uttered by him, the intention of the Church is expressed; and that this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament.


    (We are taking for granted here the proper ministers and the proper recipients. So a priest cannot ordain someone a bishop. And one is not confirmed before baptism. A female is not ordained. And such like.)



    Baptism

    Some have said that the emphasis with being welcomed into the Church vitiates the intention of the minister. Barring the minister positively stating that he did not wish to do what the Church does, the sacrament is valid.

    Form: Mentioning the act of baptizing (whether active or passive), and the invocation of the Trinity.

    The new rite meets this criterion: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

    Matter: Natural water in which the person is immersed, of the water is poured on the head, or sprinkled.

    The new rite meets this criterion: Water is poured on the head three times, or the person is immersed in it three times.


    Confirmation



    Form: Convey the bestowal (whether active or passive) of the fullness of the Holy Ghost.

    The new rite meets this criterion: "Be sealed with the Gift of the Holy Spirit," a rite taken from the Byzantines. Confer Acts 2:38.

    Matter: Chrism (olive oil and balsam), blessed by a bishop, which is used to anoint the person's forehead, and the laying on the hand.

    The new rite meets this criterion.


    Eucharist

    Some have said that the use of the word "narrative" in the text of the consecration, the previous use of "for all", and other miscellaneous points vitiate the intention of the minister. While these things were certainly clarified, there could be no real doubt that they ever vitiated the intention of the minister. Every Eucharistic prayer before the consecration says quite plainly that the bread and wine "may become the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ." The findings of the Ottaviani theologians predate clarifications about narration and consecration. Read "Is the New Mass of Pope Paul VI Invalid?" by Adam Miller for more information (even written before the new translation of the Missal).

    Form: "This is My body," over the bread, and "This is My blood," or "This is the chalice of My blood," over the wine.

    The new rite meets this criterion:

    Over the bread: "TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT, FOR THIS IS MY BODY, WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU."

    Over the wine: "TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT, FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT, WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME."

    Matter: Wheat bread, and wine from grapes.

    The new rite meets this criterion.


    Penance or Reconciliation

    Form: Absolution (whether active or passive).

    The new rite meets this criterion: "I absolve you from your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, + and of the Holy Spirit."

    Matter: Confession of sins accompanied by sorrow.

    The new rite meets this criterion in requiring conditions by which the penitent will make auricular confession.


    Anointing of the Sick

    Form: A petition of assistance expressed in the mood other than indicative.

    The new rite meets this criterion:

    "Through his holy anointing may the Lord in his love and mercy help you with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Amen. May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up. Amen."

    Matter: The anointing with olive oil, blessed by a bishop.

    The new rite meets this criterion. The first sentence is said while signing the forehead. The second while signing the hands.


    Orders

    Form: Words signifying the power and grace of the Holy Ghost given. In the case of bishops, the fullness of the office of sanctifying, teaching and ruling. In the case of priests, the office of working with the bishop, particularly in offering the Eucharistic sacrifice throughout the world. In the case of deacons, the office of service to the bishop.

    The new rite meets this criterion.

    Bishop: "So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name."

    Some have proposed that this form is invalid because "governing Spirit" does not univocally signify the sacramental effect, or because the form lacks any term which equivocally connotes the power of Order that a bishop possesses. On two previous occasions before the consecration the power of Order is stated clearly. The candidate is examined with this question: "Are you resolved to pray for the people of God without ceasing, and to carry out the duties of one who has the fullness of the priesthood so as to afford no grounds for reproach?" And later there is a call to prayer for the candidate: "Lord, be moved by our prayers. Anoint your servant with the fullness of priestly grace, and bless him with spiritual power in all its richness." Clearly, then, the "power" is the fullness of the priesthood, and cannot rightly be doubted when it is plainly stated in the ceremony twice, thus providing clearly that in the form the Church and the ministers intend to confer the "the fullness of the priesthood".


    Priest:

    "Come to our help, Lord, holy Father, almighty and eternal God; you are the source of every honor and dignity, of all progress and stability.  You watch over the growing family of man by your gift of wisdom and your pattern of order.  When you had appointed high priests to rule your people, you chose other men next to them in rank and dignity to be with them and to help them in their task; and so there grew up the ranks of priests and the offices of levites, established by sacred rites.
    "In the desert you extended the spirit of Moses to seventy wise men who helped him to rule the great company of his people.  You shared among the sons of Aaron the fullness of their father's power, to provide worthy priests in sufficient number for the increasing rites of sacrifice and worship.  With the same loving care you gave companions to your Son's apostles to help in teaching the faith: they preached the gospel to the whole world.
    "Lord, grant also to us such fellow workers, for we are weak and our need is greater.
    "Almighty Father, grant to this servant of your the dignity of the priesthood.  Renew within him the Spirit of holiness.  As a co-worker with the order of bishops may he be faithful to the ministry that he receives from you, Lord God, and be to others a model of right conduct.  May he be faithful in working with the order of bishops, so that the words of the Gospel may reach the ends of the earth, and the family of nations, made one in Christ, may become God's one, holy people.  We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.   R.  Amen."


    Deacon: Quite lengthy, and I don't believe any contends this. It can be found readily on the internet.


    Matter: Laying on of the hands.

    The new rite meets this criterion.



    Matrimony

    Form: Mutual acceptance of the offering of the marriage right.

    The new rite meets this criterion.

    Matter: Mutual offering of the marriage right, expressed in consent.

    The new rite meets this criterion.


    Offline Sigismund

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5386
    • Reputation: +3121/-44
    • Gender: Male
    new rites of the Sacraments
    « Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 03:10:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This seems solid to me, but then I believe in the validity of NO sacraments.  I will be very interested in reading the arguments offered by folks who are not persuaded by it.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    new rites of the Sacraments
    « Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 05:33:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Baptism:  intention is welcome to the church?  NO, it is removal of original sin.  BEEP!  INVALID.  

    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    new rites of the Sacraments
    « Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 08:34:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why change the rites of the sacraments at all?  

    A rite can be changed, and changed very slightly, and the Holy Ghost can depart the room.  

    How else do you explain the mass exodus of Catholics following Vatican II?

    The modern world of 1966 is identical to the modern world of 1957 so we can't just chalk it up to "the world"...  ...of course, Vatican II embraced the world and wanted the church to "get with it" so to speak.

    Yes, a valid pope can make changes in the rites but what we saw were not just changes of a few of the words in these rites but a complete reorientation of the church itself.  

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    new rites of the Sacraments
    « Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 09:48:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A Pope has no authority to change rites!  His job is to protect the rites as we know them.  Only Vatican II and their traitors can change anything they wish and it becomes NOthing!  N.O. thing!  It is the NOthing taking over.  


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    new rites of the Sacraments
    « Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 02:38:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • For confirmation the oil is not chrism, the NOthings use vegetable oil and olive oils and such.  invalid=nothing.

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    new rites of the Sacraments
    « Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 02:41:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Eucharist. Invalid, priest is invalidly ordained.  AH, you need valid ordination so that rules out NO Blood of Christ, NO confirmation, No Holy Orders.  Three strikes, your Out.  That is why they are NOthing.