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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cosmos on August 04, 2015, 09:29:29 AM

Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 04, 2015, 09:29:29 AM
Hi, I'm an old 70 years born and raised trad. I'm not SSPX but FSSP. However, my position with the SSPX is one of yearning and I hope one day there will be reconciliation. Having said that, I think Archbishop Fefebvre is one of the most brilliant minds that ever was, (which usually gives me squinty eye looks when I openly say I support his theology).

I go to NO masses because there's no EF here, but once a month attend EF when I am in the city that offers it.

On my Catholic position that is reflected here, I assume because I am in conversation with another Catholic, he has rudimentary catechism teachings down pat. I'm not trying to teach anyone here, which is why  I will not offer citation on basics, although if you catch me on a Saturday morning, AFTER my coffee I mat relent.  :laugh1: I present point of views based on theological grounding(Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata), so that is a given. If you refute what I say, back it up.  

I can also take polite correction.

Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Lighthouse on August 04, 2015, 11:17:36 PM
Well, you might start by explaining what this "EF" is that you speak of.

So, do you think that the traditional Latin Mass has been appropriately marginalized by the Novus Ordo "Mass"?
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: PerEvangelicaDicta on August 05, 2015, 12:19:44 AM
Welcome, Cosmos.  

Lighthouse, I believe 'EF' refers to 'extraordinary form', is that correct Cosmos?

70 years old hopefully = thick skin.  You may need it for the "polite correction" your brothers in the Faith will provide.  Some have a bullet-between-the-eyes approach, but the heart is in the right place.  

Stick around and get to know the members, and vice versa.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 08:25:41 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse
Well, you might start by explaining what this "EF" is that you speak of.

So, do you think that the traditional Latin Mass has been appropriately marginalized by the Novus Ordo "Mass"?


If the FSSP performance graph is any gauge, the steady upward spiral of FSSP gains looks more like a muscle-in to the NO majority, and there doesn't seem to be any resistance so far. In fact I usually state this from a question from dismayed NO people. When the SSPX issue is finally over, there will be no stopping it for sure. Lets pray for a resolution.

When I discovered that there was an EF at all after my decades of waiting, my first mass had me in tears has I heard the choir and all the spiritual memories swamped me. I was even more pleasantly surprised to see toddlers and young families, who do not even have the help of past memories and tradition to back their interest, a sure sign of the work of the Holy Spirit.

One such toddler gave me a snub. As I watched the diapered young lady with her hands held together and veil over her head walk up the aisle behind her mom and dad, I couldn't resist trying to catch her attention with a smile. No way, she remained firm and managed to put on a cute annoyed look. WOW!, I thought, what a real Catholic for our next generation; what a mom she will be one day.

In contrast, at  NO mas presided by a visiting Bishop, I witnessed a similar family walk up the aisle with burgers and fries to the front pews, not a whimper from the liturgical community.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: BTNYC on August 05, 2015, 08:40:21 AM
First off: Welcome to the forum, sir.

Quote from: Cosmos


If the FSSP performance graph is any gauge, the steady upward spiral of FSSP gains looks more like a muscle-in to the NO majority, and there doesn't seem to be any resistance so far.



Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.

And, as an aside, I think one of the worst things wrought by Summorum Pontificuм (perhaps worse than any good that was done) was the introduction of the phrase "Extraordinary form" to describe what is, in fact, the Mass of Ages; the true and only Rite of Mass of the Latin Church, as codified in perpetuity by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. The notion that a scripted, Protestantized liturgy, fabricated by a Freemason with the help of Protestant heretics, and never legally promulgated, could ever be an "ordinary" or "normative" form of Mass is utterly absurd and, frankly, repugnant.

A book I would strongly recommend hunting down (if you're able) would be The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. It's the first critique of the Novus Ordo ever published (at least in English), and shows an insightfulness and prescience that, considering it was written all the way back in 1971, is all but prophetic.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Stubborn on August 05, 2015, 09:29:42 AM
The Great Sacrilege (PDF) (http://www.cathinfo.com/TheGreatSacrilegeCI.pdf)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Sacrilege-James-Wathen/dp/0895550148 The reviews on Amazon are worth reading.


Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: PerEvangelicaDicta on August 05, 2015, 09:39:17 AM
Quote
Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.


A very close family friend lives in an area where only one independent trad chapel was available until recently, and he has attended this chapel for close to 20 years.  He began making the Chartres pilgrimage 6 years ago, and every year since, and has come to know the FSSP priests who travel from many areas for this pilgrimage. He holds them in the highest regard, which is remarkable considering his background.  To the excerpt above, he has stated repeatedly that the Fraternity are very concerned about their future since the election.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: PerEvangelicaDicta on August 05, 2015, 09:43:51 AM
Quote from: Stubborn
The Great Sacrilege (PDF) (http://www.cathinfo.com/TheGreatSacrilegeCI.pdf)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Sacrilege-James-Wathen/dp/0895550148 The reviews on Amazon are worth reading.




Cosmos, it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on this work.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Croix de Fer on August 05, 2015, 09:44:43 AM
Cosmos, let this sink in real good...

Quote from: BTNYC
First off: Welcome to the forum, sir.

Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.

And, as an aside, I think one of the worst things wrought by Summorum Pontificuм (perhaps worse than any good that was done) was the introduction of the phrase "Extraordinary form" to describe what is, in fact, the Mass of Ages; the true and only Rite of Mass of the Latin Church, as codified in perpetuity by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. The notion that a scripted, Protestantized liturgy, fabricated by a Freemason with the help of Protestant heretics, and never legally promulgated, could ever be an "ordinary" or "normative" form of Mass is utterly absurd and, frankly, repugnant.

A book I would strongly recommend hunting down (if you're able) would be The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. It's the first critique of the Novus Ordo ever published (at least in English), and shows an insightfulness and prescience that, considering it was written all the way back in 1971, is all but prophetic.


Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Lighthouse on August 05, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
PED:
Quote
Lighthouse, I believe 'EF' refers to 'extraordinary form', is that correct Cosmos?


Thanks for giving me credit for being that stupid.

(Just in case sarcasm eludes you completely you might want to consider taking a less literal approach to life).

When it comes to matters concerning God and the Holy Faith, I do tend towards a shoot-between-the-eyes approach.

(By the way, I don't see that the OP has deigned to answer my questions).
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: OHCA on August 05, 2015, 10:48:36 AM
Quote from: Cosmos
Hi, I'm an old 70 years born and raised trad. I'm not SSPX but FSSP. However, my position with the SSPX is one of yearning and I hope one day there will be reconciliation. Having said that, I think Archbishop Fefebvre is one of the most brilliant minds that ever was, (which usually gives me squinty eye looks when I openly say I support his theology).

I go to NO masses because there's no EF here, but once a month attend EF when I am in the city that offers it.

On my Catholic position that is reflected here, I assume because I am in conversation with another Catholic, he has rudimentary catechism teachings down pat. I'm not trying to teach anyone here, which is why  I will not offer citation on basics, although if you catch me on a Saturday morning, AFTER my coffee I mat relent.  :laugh1: I present point of views based on theological grounding(Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata), so that is a given. If you refute what I say, back it up.  

I can also take polite correction.



You seem to be of goodwill and coming to this forum from a vantage point quite similar to what I arrived with some 5 years ago.  I regret that your OP in this thread received the downthumbs that it has.  I encourage you to stick around and avail yourself to some of the resources suggested such as Fr. Wathen's work. The Great Sacrilege is amazing in the foresight of the man-worship/man-centered "religion" that the new "mass" would bring about.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: BTNYC on August 05, 2015, 10:56:26 AM
Quote from: OHCA
Quote from: Cosmos
Hi, I'm an old 70 years born and raised trad. I'm not SSPX but FSSP. However, my position with the SSPX is one of yearning and I hope one day there will be reconciliation. Having said that, I think Archbishop Fefebvre is one of the most brilliant minds that ever was, (which usually gives me squinty eye looks when I openly say I support his theology).

I go to NO masses because there's no EF here, but once a month attend EF when I am in the city that offers it.

On my Catholic position that is reflected here, I assume because I am in conversation with another Catholic, he has rudimentary catechism teachings down pat. I'm not trying to teach anyone here, which is why  I will not offer citation on basics, although if you catch me on a Saturday morning, AFTER my coffee I mat relent.  :laugh1: I present point of views based on theological grounding(Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata), so that is a given. If you refute what I say, back it up.  

I can also take polite correction.



You seem to be of goodwill and coming to this forum from a vantage point quite similar to what I arrived with some 5 years ago.  I regret that your OP in this thread received the downthumbs that it has.  I encourage you to stick around and avail yourself to some of the resources suggested such as Fr. Wathen's work. The Great Sacrilege is amazing in the foresight of the man-worship/man-centered "religion" that the new "mass" would bring about.


I echo OHCA here. The downthumbs are totally uncalled for. The gentleman even openly welcomed polite correction in his OP (can anyone even recall the last time that's happened around here?). I think he's demonstrated goodwill and deserves a civil welcome.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: PerEvangelicaDicta on August 05, 2015, 12:55:34 PM
Quote
Thanks for giving me credit for being that stupid.

(Just in case sarcasm eludes you completely you might want to consider taking a less literal approach to life).


Lighthouse, I am very sorry.  Yes, I am overly literal. And if you combine that with the inherent impediment of forum communication devoid of tone/facial expressions, etc., and add a touch of "I'm not as familiar with your style of writing as others", then viola - a recipe for what seemed to you as an insult to your intelligence.  My fault completely.

No excuses, just an explanation.  It won't happen again.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Lighthouse on August 05, 2015, 01:36:19 PM
Quote
No excuses, just an explanation.  It won't happen again.


No apology necessary. I don't mind getting caught up in a disagreement of opinion. I don't get "insulted" all that easily. But that goes along with what I was trying to do in questioning the OP. It's only when both sides postulate where the line is that it can become fruitful to discuss anything. I agree with BTNYC that downthumbs without explanation just don't help. That's why I posted what might be some of my concerns.   In any case, I'm getting close to that big 7.0 myself. So it's probably a fair fight.   :boxer:

( :laugh1:

Final emoti added for PED.



I don't think that I accused the OP of anything. I just had  a question that might help in the process of getting to know a new member.  


By the way, where is old Cosmos?
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 01:55:50 PM
Quote from: BTNYC
First off: Welcome to the forum, sir.

Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.

And, as an aside, I think one of the worst things wrought by Summorum Pontificuм (perhaps worse than any good that was done) was the introduction of the phrase "Extraordinary form" to describe what is, in fact, the Mass of Ages; the true and only Rite of Mass of the Latin Church, as codified in perpetuity by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. The notion that a scripted, Protestantized liturgy, fabricated by a Freemason with the help of Protestant heretics, and never legally promulgated, could ever be an "ordinary" or "normative" form of Mass is utterly absurd and, frankly, repugnant.

A book I would strongly recommend hunting down (if you're able) would be The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. It's the first critique of the Novus Ordo ever published (at least in English), and shows an insightfulness and prescience that, considering it was written all the way back in 1971, is all but prophetic.



Thanks for the invitation and references, I'll certainly look it up.

I can only speak from the perspective of the community level. I saw that graph some time ago though and it was a diagonal climb. At mass I read in the bulletin in a non chalent way that the parish was pulling in 5000$ a Sunday, compared to NO in the other parishes was 4-500 a Sunday on average. I think the diocese Cathedral was taking in a little better than this. A sure indicator of health, the FSSP parish seems to make very costly changes and repairs very fast without too much intrusion to service. This response is reminisce of the 50's where a simple request would have the congregation obliging immediately. In the NO parishes, one needed major repair to the steeple, and that was 3 years ago with still no sign of help. In fact they are desperate. As you say it is obvious that the NO has become protestantized through time.

But as far as any conspiracy at the top echelons to bury EF(?), I don't think that will ever happen and it would bring on a collective roar from the billions of us. It would be foolish also, as I think the Vatican knows this is what's saving us. I use the acronym because of common usage. The Holy Spirit had already designated what was "norm" for 2000 years. I think Summorium Pontificuм must be understood in the context of the times, and to me as a life saver that was thrown to a foundering Church caused by a disruptive group. Archbishop Lefebvre stepped right into the midst of it returning from Africa, and collectively showed them their wrong. Whatever can be said about it, I feel it was drastically needed at a precarious time in the Church. Again we witness,"not even the gates of hell"...

It is opportune you mention the Franciscans. That is where my heart resides, and I am now seeking the old rule Third Order in my area, but there is none around.  

What we need is a cohesive Church, protraying to the world a solid oneness. As in 1 Cor, we should resolve our issues in brotherhood within the Church, with no partisan divisions visible to potential converts or outside world. That's the problem I see.

Thanks.

Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse
Well, you might start by explaining what this "EF" is that you speak of.

So, do you think that the traditional Latin Mass has been appropriately marginalized by the Novus Ordo "Mass"?


I use it just to distinguish it from NO. Tridentine is fine.  

Marginalized? All my evidence points to the Latin Mass "plowing" it's way through the protestant ritual.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 02:12:35 PM
Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta
Welcome, Cosmos.  

Lighthouse, I believe 'EF' refers to 'extraordinary form', is that correct Cosmos?

70 years old hopefully = thick skin.  You may need it for the "polite correction" your brothers in the Faith will provide.  Some have a bullet-between-the-eyes approach, but the heart is in the right place.  

Stick around and get to know the members, and vice versa.


Yes, and thanks.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: OHCA on August 05, 2015, 02:18:51 PM
Quote from: Cosmos
But as far as any conspiracy at the top echelons to bury EF(?), I don't think that will ever happen and it would bring on a collective roar from the billions of us. It would be foolish also, as I think the Vatican knows this is what's saving us.


The roar would not be from billions nor even one billion--you'd be lucky if  even 1 or 2 million roared.  And the current "Bishop" of Rome would give less of a damn than Montini did when he inflicted the new "mass" upon Christendom.  The ones who are committed enough to tradition to actually roar are troublemakers in the eyes of "Rome"--they aren't very concerned about saving you or keeping you in the fold (at least not beyond what serves ulterior motives--which is probably minimal).

I don't mean to be argumentative--just a reality check.  I came here with the naïve idea that Pope Benedict's motu had set the world straight (or at least firmly upon the right path).  I definitely no longer believe that.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: OHCA on August 05, 2015, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: Cosmos
Quote from: Lighthouse
Well, you might start by explaining what this "EF" is that you speak of.

So, do you think that the traditional Latin Mass has been appropriately marginalized by the Novus Ordo "Mass"?


I use it just to distinguish it from NO.


I have some words of my own to accomplish that.    :wink:
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: Stubborn
The Great Sacrilege (PDF) (http://www.cathinfo.com/TheGreatSacrilegeCI.pdf)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Sacrilege-James-Wathen/dp/0895550148 The reviews on Amazon are worth reading.




I have not read the PDF, but I certainly will. (First, I gotta get my PJ's and coffee in hand, and escape my granddaughter who's visiting us, and who demands all attention,  Arghhhh! :facepalm:)

I have read all of Archbishop Lefebvre's papers to the community, and the story of the insurgent activity in the Vatican, such as the Masonic infiltration and such. I'm not sure if all that is true. Is there any citation of the validity of this, even from neutral upper ecclesial echelon.? If true, there should be some.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Lighthouse on August 05, 2015, 02:44:43 PM
Good to see you back, Cosmos.

Quote
All my evidence points to the Latin Mass "plowing" it's way through the protestant ritual.


What part of this world, or which extraterrestrial planet do you come from?

Unless you are in China or Australia, it's high time to get out of your pajamas.

 :laugh1:
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 05, 2015, 03:10:17 PM
Welcome aboard, Cosmos.

You were in your early 20's when Vatican II took place.  What was the general attitude of your fellow parishioners when the Mass was changed?  

How old were you when your parish started using Communion in the Hand?

How did you discover the FSSP?

Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: BTNYC on August 05, 2015, 05:04:56 PM
Quote from: OHCA
I came here with the naïve idea that Pope Benedict's motu had set the world straight (or at least firmly upon the right path).  I definitely no longer believe that.


Nor do I.

Another good book - particularly one for reading Summorum Pontificuм in a very illuminating context - would be The Reform of the Roman Liturgy by Msgr. Klaus Gamber. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the introduction to the French version of the book. That introduction is the source of Ratzinger / Benedict's famous quote describing the Novus Ordo as a "banal, on-the-spot fabrication." The future (now former) pope also went on in that introduction to call Msgr Gamber (I'm paraphrasing) the best representative of the "center" of the Church's liturgical thinking, and he more or less openly endorsed the solution to the liturgical crisis laid out in that book.

That solution, briefly put, was to restore the TLM, and establish it as the official Roman Liturgical Rite. The Novus Ordo would be re-branded as an "Ad Experimentum" Rite; it would be permitted to exist for a limited timeframe (soemthing like 10 years) and would be offered no more than once a day in any given parish, and never offered instead of the TLM. If, at the end of that timeframe, the "experimental" rite had not brought forth good fruits (which, of course, it has not and would not), it would be abrogated and the TLM would remain what St. Pius V declared it to be in perpetuity - the one and only official Roman Rite of Mass. Most importantly, the two Rites would be established as two separate, distinct and totally different Rites (which they objectively are).

Well, despite endorsing that plan in word, Benedict XVI brought about something far different in deed. Summorum Pontificuм, in yet another postconciliar violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction, declared that the TLM and the NO are not separate and distinct rites, but merely different "forms" of the same Roman Rite (by which logic, we'd have to declare all other Rites - Mozarabic, Byzantine, Coptic, Syriac, all of which are far more similar to the TLM than the NO is - to merely be various "forms" of the one Rite - utter absdurdity). Worse, it establishes the NO as the "Ordinary Form" and the TLM as the "Extraordinary Form." Worse still, it actually relegates the Traditional Latin Mass - the Mass of Ages - to the ignominious position of being merely "an" (not "the") "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite (one wonders - what are the other "extraordinary forms" of the Rite?). It also goes out of its way to insist that the TLM should be provided merely as a "pastoral" favor to those weak souls "attached" to, or who "prefer" that Mass that Quo Primum defined as the one and only Rite of Mass for the Roman Church, in perpetuity, under pain of sin and the Wrath of Almighty God and Saints Peter and Paul - and not because the Novus Ordo is an objectively inferior, "banal, on-the-spot fabrication" (to quote the pope who promulgated Summorum Pontificuм), and therefore an abomination that can never replace the TLM.

But the era of Benedict XVI's weak, milquetoast, compromised overtures to Tradition is now over, replaced by the current infelicitous reign of Bergoglio, who has opted for a campaign of open hostility and antipathy for the Traditional Latin Mass, and even the Catholic Faith and Morality itself. In an era when Catholics who merely wish to pray and live as Catholics always have are openly derided and slandered by the Occupant of the Papal Throne as "Rosary Counters" and "Promethean neo-Pelagians," and when the very Natural Law itself is being put up for debate at two putative "Synods" called by the pope and engineered by his Modernist cronies, one would have to be looking at the world through some seriously vision-imparing rose-colored glasses to think that the great Restoration of Catholic Tradition lies anywhere at all in the near future.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Nadir on August 05, 2015, 05:33:01 PM
Quote from: Cosmos

I have read all of Archbishop Lefebvre's papers to the community, and the story of the insurgent activity in the Vatican, such as the Masonic infiltration and such. I'm not sure if all that is true.


I knew this thread was a goer when I read the OP!
Cosmos, you sound like an real optimist, but it doesn't sound real to me. You would do well to read this as well.

http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/Padre_Pio___Fr.html
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 09:26:32 PM
I note a lot of reference material is recommended. What's the general feeling on this site in regards to the caveats of Nihil Obstat?  

Thanks.

Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: OHCA on August 05, 2015, 10:05:23 PM
Quote from: Cosmos
I note a lot of reference material is recommended. What's the general feeling on this site in regards to the caveats of Nihil Obstat?  

Thanks.



The lack of it in the hijacked-Rome era (post-Oct 1958) doesn't cause me to automatically discount material.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 10:17:20 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Welcome aboard, Cosmos.

You were in your early 20's when Vatican II took place.  What was the general attitude of your fellow parishioners when the Mass was changed?  

How old were you when your parish started using Communion in the Hand?

How did you discover the FSSP?



Observably it was very subtle. I just did what I was told as regards to anything about my religion. To understand why, you need to live through the "Angela's Ashes" days of the early 50's. There was none of this liberal permissive free thinking that there is now.

My first in-hand I recall, but it wasn't significant to me. When the changes were fed to us peacemeal, it would be hard to read that has a premonition of disaster. Again, I guess some would say that it and other changes were a part of the grand conspiracy, and perhaps that is true.  Back in the 70's I recall someone questioned the facing the congregation altar, and it was then that I felt the first indicators something was wrong as I agreed to the reasoning that we should face God, and He should not see our backs. Maybe wrong is not the word, but it was not UNLIKE the protestant churches I attended a few times. (An explaination. In the military of 1963 Germany, 30Inf 3rd Div, schedules for worship were not that dependable, and sometimes I felt it was OK to drop in on a protestant ritual at the same building when I couldn't attend a Mass. It was all of general interest to me, and being staunchly Catholic, it was more entertaining than influencing. There was never in my life where I did not believe we were members of the True Church.  

About 4 years ago I joined the ofs in the city 80 miles away. Arriving in town early for the meeting, I had time for a mass and found myself in a traditional mass.  That's when I had my most pleasant re-discovery. Never looked back.

Ecuмeni-what? was the next negative in my view, as it smacked of a love wish with being protestant, not a gradual introduction to Catholicism as it should be. A lot of bargaining with majority protestant churches and close calls had me nervous. Concessions were a great worry. But there is bases in my suspicion. I felt it betrayed the mothers of Catholic children for 2000 years who sought to bring their children in the front door of learning. To ensure they were baptized Catholic and taught catechism. They had to convey a trust to Christ first as every Baptizm is. These moms ensured they were brought up in a domestic environment that actually lived the Church. No, it sounded to me too much of presenting a silver platter with no show of qualification or effort. Sort of like a RCIA en-masse, a wave of a wand and 4 million Catholics are baptized.  

Back then we children would correct each other. We would state it when we sinned. We were seriously concerned if we missed confession. We would take great pleasure to hide behind the bushes to watch the well dressed Jehova Witness reps get dispatched with a straw broom by a stern Mom when the door of the Catholic home was opened. No sir, you wanted to become member of the Catholic church, there were no ticket scalpers to count on. If you tried to persuade us, good luck. Everyone came in the same door to my Church.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 05, 2015, 10:49:13 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse
Good to see you back, Cosmos.

Quote
All my evidence points to the Latin Mass "plowing" it's way through the protestant ritual.


What part of this world, or which extraterrestrial planet do you come from?

Unless you are in China or Australia, it's high time to get out of your pajamas.

 :laugh1:


You and my wife must be co-conspirators.  :roll-laugh2:
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Nadir on August 06, 2015, 12:47:58 AM
Quote from: Cosmos


I have read all of Archbishop Lefebvre's papers to the community, and the story of the insurgent activity in the Vatican, such as the Masonic infiltration and such. I'm not sure if all that is true. Is there any citation of the validity of this, even from neutral upper ecclesial echelon.? If true, there should be some.


What does this - neutral upper ecclesial echelon - mean? Just who did you have in mind.

You didn't respond to my earlier comment, or are you reading http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/Padre_Pio___Fr.html

If you are expecting popes to confirm Masonic infiltration you might wait a while. Here is an except from the link above;

Quote
Almost sixty years ago, “Padre Pio first met Father Luigi Villa, whom he entreated to devote his entire life to fight Ecclesiastical Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. Padre Pio told Father Villa that Our Lord had designs upon him and had chosen him to be educated and trained to fight Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ within the Church. The Saint spelled out this task in three meetings with Father Villa, which took place in the last fifteen years of life of Padre Pio. At the close of the second meeting [second half of 1963], Padre Pio embraced Father Villa three times, saying to him: ‘Be brave, now…for the Church has already been invaded by Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ!’ and then stated: ‘Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ has already made it into the loafers (shoes) of the Pope!’ At the time, the reigning Pope was Paul VI.
 


Would what Saint (Padre) Pio had to say, and the seven assassination attempts on the life of Fr Villa convince you? Pope Leo XIII also had something to say about it, and not for no reason. Humanum genus http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus.html
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: OHCA on August 06, 2015, 01:48:19 AM
Quote from: Nadir
Quote from: Cosmos


I have read all of Archbishop Lefebvre's papers to the community, and the story of the insurgent activity in the Vatican, such as the Masonic infiltration and such. I'm not sure if all that is true. Is there any citation of the validity of this, even from neutral upper ecclesial echelon.? If true, there should be some.


. . .

If you are expecting popes to confirm Masonic infiltration you might wait a while.

. . .


Excellent point!  The essence of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is secrecy.  Then couple that with their power and further insulated by the power of the Church after infiltrating and controlling the trappings thereof.  We're lucky to have gotten the nuggets of indications that we have.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: BTNYC on August 06, 2015, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: Cosmos
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Welcome aboard, Cosmos.

You were in your early 20's when Vatican II took place.  What was the general attitude of your fellow parishioners when the Mass was changed?  

How old were you when your parish started using Communion in the Hand?

How did you discover the FSSP?



Observably it was very subtle. I just did what I was told as regards to anything about my religion. To understand why, you need to live through the "Angela's Ashes" days of the early 50's. There was none of this liberal permissive free thinking that there is now.

My first in-hand I recall, but it wasn't significant to me. When the changes were fed to us peacemeal, it would be hard to read that has a premonition of disaster. Again, I guess some would say that it and other changes were a part of the grand conspiracy, and perhaps that is true.  Back in the 70's I recall someone questioned the facing the congregation altar, and it was then that I felt the first indicators something was wrong as I agreed to the reasoning that we should face God, and He should not see our backs. Maybe wrong is not the word, but it was not UNLIKE the protestant churches I attended a few times.


Cosmos is the same age as my mother, and what he describes sounds very famiiar to me - It sounds just like what my mother and aunts and uncles describe the changes being like - a veritable boiling of frogs if ever there was such a case.

This also puts me in mind of a passage from The Great Sacrilege, where Fr. Wathen describes the insidious manner in which the Novus Ordo was implemented, and his prophetic description of how the children of that generation who watched the changes occur passively (that generation of children being my genertion, and most of us here on CI) would be better able to see the NO for what it is, not having been raised with the TLM, and therefore not "reading into" the NO what actually is not there...

For the record, my mother (and one aunt) who actually now decry those changes and long for the days of the ubiquitous TLM, paradoxically are still unable to pull themselves entirely away from the NO. It's absolutely disheartening and maddening for me as a son, and I think Fr. Wathen perfectly describes the psychology behind this phenomenon as well in this passage:

Quote from: Fr. James Wathen

One can analyze the “New Mass” properly only by
comparing it with that which its creators claim it is, the
Mass of the Roman Rite. When Catholics now go to “mass,”
their habit is to see what is not there. The reason is, they have all
but forgotten the True Mass, and what they see is a resemblance of
it. They read meanings into words which the words they hear
do not say, while they fail to advert to what the words do say.
In this way, the real objectives of the “vernacular movement”
are realized. It does not occur to the faithful that their children,
not having the mental background they do, are better able to
see the thing as it is, for they see only what is there, and hear
only the words which are spoken. The people do not wish to
awaken to what has happened (and is still happening). They
live in a fictitious world, and they resent any effort to jolt them
out of it. Such an awakening would cause them a great
problem, a great host of problems, every kind of friction,
inconvenience, and readjustment. And it would impose such
noisome burdens.

While the True Mass was being withdrawn from them, the
people watched and endured it helplessly, uncomprehendingly,
resignedly. And all the while it was being done, they were being
“re-educated”: on the one hand, while the True Mass was being
hidden from view, erased from their memory, every kind of
irreverent, pseudo-liturgical, and specious criticism was being
made against it by their clerical indoctrinators; on the other
hand, as the parts of the Replacement were being eased in,
various and sundry equally implausible rationalizations were
being pumped into their bewildered brains. Those who
showed mistrust and suspicion or who raised objections were
subjected to withering scorn. Even now, most Catholics are
unaware of the immeasurable dissimilarity between the True
Mass and its perfidious Plagiarism. They really think that the
main differences are a change in language and the turning
around of the altar. Three other factors contributed to their
subversion. For one thing, the language of the “New Mass”
sounds truly pious and prayerful. For another, everything
about the “new religion” is decidedly easier, pleasanter,
friendlier, more casual—and, at times, simply great fun! And
most insidious of all is the argument that the changes are good
if you like them. “If you like them!” This means you are
praying better. If the new way makes you feel better, your
worship is bound to be better. The one question never allowed
was whether God approves of this “New Religion.” Of course,
it does not matter, for “The People is Baal.”
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Cosmos on August 06, 2015, 11:14:05 PM
Quote from: Nadir


I have read all of Archbishop Lefebvre's papers to the community, and the story of the insurgent activity in the Vatican, such as the Masonic infiltration and such. I'm not sure if all that is true. Is there any citation of the validity of this, even from neutral upper ecclesial echelon.? If true, there should be some.


What does this - neutral upper ecclesial echelon - mean? Just who did you have in mind.

 [/quote]

Sorry for confusion. Like bystanders in a dispute, I thought there might be some neutral magesterium as observers/insiders, who through their correspondence to others could shed a detached point of view on the matter.
Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: Nadir on August 07, 2015, 03:42:23 AM
Quote from: Cosmos
Quote from: Cosmos


I have read all of Archbishop Lefebvre's papers to the community, and the story of the insurgent activity in the Vatican, such as the Masonic infiltration and such. I'm not sure if all that is true. Is there any citation of the validity of this, even from neutral upper ecclesial echelon.? If true, there should be some.


Quote from: Nadir
What does this - neutral upper ecclesial echelon - mean? Just who did you have in mind.

 


Sorry for confusion. Like bystanders in a dispute, I thought there might be some neutral magesterium as observers/insiders, who through their correspondence to others could shed a detached point of view on the matter.


Well I guess we are all bystanders. It's just that not all bystanders are taking notice.

There is not such thing as a neutral magisterium.

As I said earlier, if you wait for today's regime to acknowledge and condemn the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic influence in the Church, you might wait a while.

However there are many trustworthy sources to confirm the infiltration of the Church by ʝʊdɛօ-masonry. Jesus Himself told Padre Pio that he had singled out don Luigi Villa for fighting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in the Church. You can't have a higher recommendation than that. So if you want the truth on this subject, and it is crucial in understanding the state of the Church, you can't go past Fr Villa's writings.

Others here I am sure have other suggestions. I would suggest also that you read
Vicomte Leon de Poncins, Freemasonary and the Vatican
You can buy it through Matthew by clicking the link on the home page:
Click here to start your Amazon.com session so CathInfo gets credit!



Title: New Guy, Old Trads
Post by: BTNYC on August 07, 2015, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: Nadir


As I said earlier, if you wait for today's regime to acknowledge and condemn the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic influence in the Church, you might wait a while.

However there are many trustworthy sources to confirm the infiltration of the Church by ʝʊdɛօ-masonry. Jesus Himself told Padre Pio that he had singled out don Luigi Villa for fighting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in the Church. You can't have a higher recommendation than that. So if you want the truth on this subject, and it is crucial in understanding the state of the Church, you can't go past Fr Villa's writings.



I echo the endorsement of Fr. Villa's writings.

The evidence for Masonic infiltration is overwhelming. There's Paul VI's famous "through some crack the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God," which testifies to this (though the "crack" which he seemed so mystified by was nothing less than the Council he brought to a close and all the damnable novelties he promulgated and / or allowed to flourish in its wake), as do the pope's actions against Bugnini when the latter was - by all credible accounts - revealed to be among the hundreds of high ranking clerical Masons.

Plus we have the warnings of the Popes of old - they warned us of the diabolical religious indifferentism that is the Masons' hallmark - the very same religious indifferentism that the Novus Ordo sect now pushes and promotes.

What more "proof" is needed to add 2 + 2 to come up with 4?