Author Topic: New Guy, Old Trads  (Read 3218 times)

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Offline Cosmos

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New Guy, Old Trads
« on: August 04, 2015, 09:29:29 AM »
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  • Hi, I'm an old 70 years born and raised trad. I'm not SSPX but FSSP. However, my position with the SSPX is one of yearning and I hope one day there will be reconciliation. Having said that, I think Archbishop Fefebvre is one of the most brilliant minds that ever was, (which usually gives me squinty eye looks when I openly say I support his theology).

    I go to NO masses because there's no EF here, but once a month attend EF when I am in the city that offers it.

    On my Catholic position that is reflected here, I assume because I am in conversation with another Catholic, he has rudimentary catechism teachings down pat. I'm not trying to teach anyone here, which is why  I will not offer citation on basics, although if you catch me on a Saturday morning, AFTER my coffee I mat relent.  :laugh1: I present point of views based on theological grounding(Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata), so that is a given. If you refute what I say, back it up.  

    I can also take polite correction.

    The Truth either indicts or exonerates.

    Offline Lighthouse

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    « Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 11:17:36 PM »
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  • Well, you might start by explaining what this "EF" is that you speak of.

    So, do you think that the traditional Latin Mass has been appropriately marginalized by the Novus Ordo "Mass"?


    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    « Reply #2 on: August 05, 2015, 12:19:44 AM »
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  • Welcome, Cosmos.  

    Lighthouse, I believe 'EF' refers to 'extraordinary form', is that correct Cosmos?

    70 years old hopefully = thick skin.  You may need it for the "polite correction" your brothers in the Faith will provide.  Some have a bullet-between-the-eyes approach, but the heart is in the right place.  

    Stick around and get to know the members, and vice versa.

    Offline Cosmos

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    « Reply #3 on: August 05, 2015, 08:25:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lighthouse
    Well, you might start by explaining what this "EF" is that you speak of.

    So, do you think that the traditional Latin Mass has been appropriately marginalized by the Novus Ordo "Mass"?


    If the FSSP performance graph is any gauge, the steady upward spiral of FSSP gains looks more like a muscle-in to the NO majority, and there doesn't seem to be any resistance so far. In fact I usually state this from a question from dismayed NO people. When the SSPX issue is finally over, there will be no stopping it for sure. Lets pray for a resolution.

    When I discovered that there was an EF at all after my decades of waiting, my first mass had me in tears has I heard the choir and all the spiritual memories swamped me. I was even more pleasantly surprised to see toddlers and young families, who do not even have the help of past memories and tradition to back their interest, a sure sign of the work of the Holy Spirit.

    One such toddler gave me a snub. As I watched the diapered young lady with her hands held together and veil over her head walk up the aisle behind her mom and dad, I couldn't resist trying to catch her attention with a smile. No way, she remained firm and managed to put on a cute annoyed look. WOW!, I thought, what a real Catholic for our next generation; what a mom she will be one day.

    In contrast, at  NO mas presided by a visiting Bishop, I witnessed a similar family walk up the aisle with burgers and fries to the front pews, not a whimper from the liturgical community.
    The Truth either indicts or exonerates.

    Offline BTNYC

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    « Reply #4 on: August 05, 2015, 08:40:21 AM »
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  • First off: Welcome to the forum, sir.

    Quote from: Cosmos


    If the FSSP performance graph is any gauge, the steady upward spiral of FSSP gains looks more like a muscle-in to the NO majority, and there doesn't seem to be any resistance so far.



    Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.

    And, as an aside, I think one of the worst things wrought by Summorum Pontificum (perhaps worse than any good that was done) was the introduction of the phrase "Extraordinary form" to describe what is, in fact, the Mass of Ages; the true and only Rite of Mass of the Latin Church, as codified in perpetuity by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. The notion that a scripted, Protestantized liturgy, fabricated by a Freemason with the help of Protestant heretics, and never legally promulgated, could ever be an "ordinary" or "normative" form of Mass is utterly absurd and, frankly, repugnant.

    A book I would strongly recommend hunting down (if you're able) would be The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. It's the first critique of the Novus Ordo ever published (at least in English), and shows an insightfulness and prescience that, considering it was written all the way back in 1971, is all but prophetic.


    Offline Stubborn

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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    « Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 09:39:17 AM »
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  • Quote
    Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.


    A very close family friend lives in an area where only one independent trad chapel was available until recently, and he has attended this chapel for close to 20 years.  He began making the Chartres pilgrimage 6 years ago, and every year since, and has come to know the FSSP priests who travel from many areas for this pilgrimage. He holds them in the highest regard, which is remarkable considering his background.  To the excerpt above, he has stated repeatedly that the Fraternity are very concerned about their future since the election.

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    « Reply #7 on: August 05, 2015, 09:43:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    The Great Sacrilege (PDF)

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895550148/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0895550148&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 The reviews on Amazon are worth reading.




    Cosmos, it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on this work.


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    « Reply #8 on: August 05, 2015, 09:44:43 AM »
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  • Cosmos, let this sink in real good...

    Quote from: BTNYC
    First off: Welcome to the forum, sir.

    Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.

    And, as an aside, I think one of the worst things wrought by Summorum Pontificum (perhaps worse than any good that was done) was the introduction of the phrase "Extraordinary form" to describe what is, in fact, the Mass of Ages; the true and only Rite of Mass of the Latin Church, as codified in perpetuity by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. The notion that a scripted, Protestantized liturgy, fabricated by a Freemason with the help of Protestant heretics, and never legally promulgated, could ever be an "ordinary" or "normative" form of Mass is utterly absurd and, frankly, repugnant.

    A book I would strongly recommend hunting down (if you're able) would be The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. It's the first critique of the Novus Ordo ever published (at least in English), and shows an insightfulness and prescience that, considering it was written all the way back in 1971, is all but prophetic.


    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Lighthouse

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    « Reply #9 on: August 05, 2015, 10:06:49 AM »
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  • PED:
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    Lighthouse, I believe 'EF' refers to 'extraordinary form', is that correct Cosmos?


    Thanks for giving me credit for being that stupid.

    (Just in case sarcasm eludes you completely you might want to consider taking a less literal approach to life).

    When it comes to matters concerning God and the Holy Faith, I do tend towards a shoot-between-the-eyes approach.

    (By the way, I don't see that the OP has deigned to answer my questions).

    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #10 on: August 05, 2015, 10:48:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cosmos
    Hi, I'm an old 70 years born and raised trad. I'm not SSPX but FSSP. However, my position with the SSPX is one of yearning and I hope one day there will be reconciliation. Having said that, I think Archbishop Fefebvre is one of the most brilliant minds that ever was, (which usually gives me squinty eye looks when I openly say I support his theology).

    I go to NO masses because there's no EF here, but once a month attend EF when I am in the city that offers it.

    On my Catholic position that is reflected here, I assume because I am in conversation with another Catholic, he has rudimentary catechism teachings down pat. I'm not trying to teach anyone here, which is why  I will not offer citation on basics, although if you catch me on a Saturday morning, AFTER my coffee I mat relent.  :laugh1: I present point of views based on theological grounding(Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata), so that is a given. If you refute what I say, back it up.  

    I can also take polite correction.



    You seem to be of goodwill and coming to this forum from a vantage point quite similar to what I arrived with some 5 years ago.  I regret that your OP in this thread received the downthumbs that it has.  I encourage you to stick around and avail yourself to some of the resources suggested such as Fr. Wathen's work. The Great Sacrilege is amazing in the foresight of the man-worship/man-centered "religion" that the new "mass" would bring about.


    Offline BTNYC

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    « Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 10:56:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: Cosmos
    Hi, I'm an old 70 years born and raised trad. I'm not SSPX but FSSP. However, my position with the SSPX is one of yearning and I hope one day there will be reconciliation. Having said that, I think Archbishop Fefebvre is one of the most brilliant minds that ever was, (which usually gives me squinty eye looks when I openly say I support his theology).

    I go to NO masses because there's no EF here, but once a month attend EF when I am in the city that offers it.

    On my Catholic position that is reflected here, I assume because I am in conversation with another Catholic, he has rudimentary catechism teachings down pat. I'm not trying to teach anyone here, which is why  I will not offer citation on basics, although if you catch me on a Saturday morning, AFTER my coffee I mat relent.  :laugh1: I present point of views based on theological grounding(Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata), so that is a given. If you refute what I say, back it up.  

    I can also take polite correction.



    You seem to be of goodwill and coming to this forum from a vantage point quite similar to what I arrived with some 5 years ago.  I regret that your OP in this thread received the downthumbs that it has.  I encourage you to stick around and avail yourself to some of the resources suggested such as Fr. Wathen's work. The Great Sacrilege is amazing in the foresight of the man-worship/man-centered "religion" that the new "mass" would bring about.


    I echo OHCA here. The downthumbs are totally uncalled for. The gentleman even openly welcomed polite correction in his OP (can anyone even recall the last time that's happened around here?). I think he's demonstrated goodwill and deserves a civil welcome.

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    « Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 12:55:34 PM »
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    Thanks for giving me credit for being that stupid.

    (Just in case sarcasm eludes you completely you might want to consider taking a less literal approach to life).


    Lighthouse, I am very sorry.  Yes, I am overly literal. And if you combine that with the inherent impediment of forum communication devoid of tone/facial expressions, etc., and add a touch of "I'm not as familiar with your style of writing as others", then viola - a recipe for what seemed to you as an insult to your intelligence.  My fault completely.

    No excuses, just an explanation.  It won't happen again.

    Offline Lighthouse

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    « Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 01:36:19 PM »
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    No excuses, just an explanation.  It won't happen again.


    No apology necessary. I don't mind getting caught up in a disagreement of opinion. I don't get "insulted" all that easily. But that goes along with what I was trying to do in questioning the OP. It's only when both sides postulate where the line is that it can become fruitful to discuss anything. I agree with BTNYC that downthumbs without explanation just don't help. That's why I posted what might be some of my concerns.   In any case, I'm getting close to that big 7.0 myself. So it's probably a fair fight.   :boxer:

    ( :laugh1:

    Final emoti added for PED.



    I don't think that I accused the OP of anything. I just had  a question that might help in the process of getting to know a new member.  


    By the way, where is old Cosmos?

    Offline Cosmos

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    « Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 01:55:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: BTNYC
    First off: Welcome to the forum, sir.

    Would that that were true. But a look at what evil the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter has done to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate shows that there is a great deal of resistance to the return of Tradition, and at the very highest echelons. It's going to get much worse before it gets better. My closest friend is an FSSP priest, and I get the distinct impression from him that he and his brothers feel the Sword of Damacles (read: Bergoglio) hanging over their heads.

    And, as an aside, I think one of the worst things wrought by Summorum Pontificum (perhaps worse than any good that was done) was the introduction of the phrase "Extraordinary form" to describe what is, in fact, the Mass of Ages; the true and only Rite of Mass of the Latin Church, as codified in perpetuity by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. The notion that a scripted, Protestantized liturgy, fabricated by a Freemason with the help of Protestant heretics, and never legally promulgated, could ever be an "ordinary" or "normative" form of Mass is utterly absurd and, frankly, repugnant.

    A book I would strongly recommend hunting down (if you're able) would be The Great Sacrilege by Fr. James Wathen. It's the first critique of the Novus Ordo ever published (at least in English), and shows an insightfulness and prescience that, considering it was written all the way back in 1971, is all but prophetic.



    Thanks for the invitation and references, I'll certainly look it up.

    I can only speak from the perspective of the community level. I saw that graph some time ago though and it was a diagonal climb. At mass I read in the bulletin in a non chalent way that the parish was pulling in 5000$ a Sunday, compared to NO in the other parishes was 4-500 a Sunday on average. I think the diocese Cathedral was taking in a little better than this. A sure indicator of health, the FSSP parish seems to make very costly changes and repairs very fast without too much intrusion to service. This response is reminisce of the 50's where a simple request would have the congregation obliging immediately. In the NO parishes, one needed major repair to the steeple, and that was 3 years ago with still no sign of help. In fact they are desperate. As you say it is obvious that the NO has become protestantized through time.

    But as far as any conspiracy at the top echelons to bury EF(?), I don't think that will ever happen and it would bring on a collective roar from the billions of us. It would be foolish also, as I think the Vatican knows this is what's saving us. I use the acronym because of common usage. The Holy Spirit had already designated what was "norm" for 2000 years. I think Summorium Pontificum must be understood in the context of the times, and to me as a life saver that was thrown to a foundering Church caused by a disruptive group. Archbishop Lefebvre stepped right into the midst of it returning from Africa, and collectively showed them their wrong. Whatever can be said about it, I feel it was drastically needed at a precarious time in the Church. Again we witness,"not even the gates of hell"...

    It is opportune you mention the Franciscans. That is where my heart resides, and I am now seeking the old rule Third Order in my area, but there is none around.  

    What we need is a cohesive Church, protraying to the world a solid oneness. As in 1 Cor, we should resolve our issues in brotherhood within the Church, with no partisan divisions visible to potential converts or outside world. That's the problem I see.

    Thanks.

    The Truth either indicts or exonerates.

     

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