Author Topic: New Cathinfo Rules (Read 5309 times)

Matthew · « **on:** October 16, 2007, 12:10:52 AM »

It has come to my attention that I am being TOO lenient with regards to certain uncharitable phrases, disrespectful comments, etc.

I was trying to do the impossible. But rather than give up, I'm going to try to make it work -- I just need to be more realistic.

I have always tried to keep a sane balance -- by allowing "the other side" to have their say, for instance. I will continue to do so in the future.

However, several good members -- the kind of members I WANT to have here on Cathinfo -- have been turned off by the vitriol being posted from certain quarters. Some have left, others have said things to me, and still others visit less often because they don't like to be angered and/or frustrated by certain posts/members.

Anarchy and disorder are not Catholic. Therefore, I need to lay down a few rules:

1. I am going to censor any uncharitable and/or misleading terms, which include the following: "Roman P rotestant", "Lefebvris t", "F ellayist" and others which I will think of later. Please use descriptive, neutral, mainstream, and well-established terms: "Novus Ordo" rather than "Roman P rotestant"; "SSPX" rather than "L efebvrite", etc.

2. Discussion of Sedevacantism is allowed in the "Crisis in the Church" sub-forum only. I will be much more strict in the future about moving posts there. Posts that "go sede" I will either moderate, or move to the Crisis sub-forum depending on the circuмstances.

3. This forum has an "official position" as regards the Crisis in the Church: the SSPX position. All other points of view are being tolerated in the spirit of charity; therefore I expect them to be charitable in return. Rude guests will be censored, warned, or asked to leave at the moderator's discretion.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2007, 12:35:00 AM »

The goal of these rules is to have a board where Catholics can discuss important issues freely.

Many Catholics are not interested in, or are positively repulsed by, sedevacantist rhetoric. Meanwhile, sedevacantists (and others) are very interested in discussing the Crisis in the Church.

By keeping such discussion in the Crisis in the Church forum, it allows those who "don't want to hear about it" to ignore that whole sub-forum, and thus enjoy the rest of Cathinfo.

There will never be a "perfect solution", but I believe this is the best solution we can hope for.

Matthew

dust-7 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2007, 03:36:09 AM »

Quote from: ChantCd

certain uncharitable phrases, disrespectful comments, etc.

Have not come from me. And I noticed that one recently seemed eager to take offense when none was given, finding some sin, some fault, which was not merely never intended, but was never even written. Have you taken that side, then? and against those who defend Catholic orthodoxy?

For all I wrote about sin, about the pride in us all, you didn't grasp one single word of it. Not a one.

Catholicism does not mean anything and everything, and certainly not its opposite. If an Arian would not be called an Arian, a Lutheran not a Lutheran, a Modernist not a Modernist, then let her become Roman Catholic. Pray for it, not that they succeed in silencing those Catholics who in all charity wish only that they see instead the heresy for heresy, apostacy for apostacy, and that such who are lost will instead embrace true and faithful Catholicism as from the founding of that Church in the Apostolic Age.

You have shown, instead, just what it is that you - respect.

I don't. Catholics don't. It's your web board, and you're welcome to it.

Dawn · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:28:32 AM »

I will refrain from those phrases. To make my position clear, I hope and pray the Pope Benedict will make the right choices and steer us away from disaster. I am aware that some think the Pope is being held as a type of prisoner under a certain Cardinal B. I first read that in the Remnant. If people really believe that to be true, then I expect to hear the leaders of the Traditional Catholic movement such as the Remnant and the SSPX speak out to the media. It is cruel to let such a situation be and keep silent. Maybe he would then be able to pull us out of the "Murky Waters of Vatican II".
If it is true and those who are aware of it are silent then shame on you, and if it is not true and like St. Paul we should rebuke Peter and not recognise him as being good then shame on you.

Trinity · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:37:14 AM »

At the risk of being tossed out head first, I'm going on record as not believing it. IF this "pope" or any before him was held prisoner there would be many ways he could signal that to us. But no, they go from one scandal to another, with nothing but weasel words between. Excuse me, but it seems to be an immature stand to continue to believe in someone who has proven ill will time and again and a offers nothing to believe in, unless you count the crumbs which amount to nothing.

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:37:35 AM »

Quote from: dust-7

Catholicism does not mean anything and everything, and certainly not its opposite. If an Arian would not be called an Arian, a Lutheran not a Lutheran, a Modernist not a Modernist, then let her become Roman Catholic. Pray for it, not that they succeed in silencing those Catholics who in all charity wish only that they see instead the heresy for heresy, apostacy for apostacy...

I wouldn't mind so much if you called "catholics" like Bishop Brown a neo-Protestant (or even the Roman variety). But you indiscriminately apply that term to ANYONE who happens to attend the Novus Ordo. For all you know, they still have the Faith. That does NOT make them a protestant. That is why it's inaccurate, misleading, and not very charitable.

I have yet to hear a justification for using terms like "R oman Protestant" instead of the much more clear "Novus Ordo". It doesn't have as much negative baggage, but it works just as well for conveying a concept. Conveying a concept is the aim of all language.

Yes, those who "still have the Faith" in the Novus Ordo establishment have the Faith DESPITE the Mass (or "mass", in some cases?) they attend on Sunday. Nevertheless, they never willfully left the Catholic Church. After all, the church they attend every Sunday says "St. Mary's Catholic Church" and they know that only the CATHOLIC Church goes back to the Apostles, etc.

So you need to give them more credit than the average Protestant -- who REALLY need to be blind when they go to their "Lutheran" church every Sunday -- let's see, none of the Apostles was named Luther, and Our Lord is Jesus Christ, not Luther. And it was founded in the 1600s.

Matthew

Trinity · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:40:43 AM »

If they attend a NO, they are attending a Protestantized service. I thought that was a given.

Dawn · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:40:52 AM »

Even the saintly Archbishop Lefebrve recognized the Novus Ordo as Protestant based. And, no less than the Servant of God Archbishop Fulton Sheen said stay away. And what about Ottoviani? I think alot of HOLY Catholics call it Protestant based. And, I have always said and still say those who do not know will not be held accountable. But, to those of us who know and stilll make excuses, well.....

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:47:40 AM »

Quote from: Dawn

I will refrain from those phrases. To make my position clear, I hope and pray the Pope Benedict will make the right choices and steer us away from disaster. I am aware that some think the Pope is being held as a type of prisoner under a certain Cardinal B. I first read that in the Remnant.

It's a theory, but how would we ever know if it's true?

I'm not much inclined to believe it -- though I try to reserve judgement, because no one really knows. How can any of us say with certainty, one way or the other, what goes on in the Vatican? Most of us have never met the Pope, or any of the cardinals for that matter. All we can do is conjecture.

It's much more likely that Pope Benedict has been filled (to the brim) with Freemasonic ideas and Modernism, and that he acts on his own volition.

Haven't you ever met a parent who is over-indulgent with their kids "because they love them"? Of course you and I know that lack of discipline is a recipe for disaster, for their souls' and for their earthly life. But the parent honestly thinks that spanking their kids would harm them. It has to do with how the parent was taught.

Now the mind of Pope Benedict is chock-full of modern German philosophers and theologians -- and that isn't a good thing.

Matthew

Matthew · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:52:54 AM »

Quote from: Dawn

Even the saintly Archbishop Lefebrve recognized the Novus Ordo as Protestant based. And, no less than the Servant of God Archbishop Fulton Sheen said stay away. And what about Ottoviani? I think alot of HOLY Catholics call it Protestant based. And, I have always said and still say those who do not know will not be held accountable. But, to those of us who know and stilll make excuses, well.....

I also say that the N.O. Mass is protestant-based. After all, a team of Protestant ministers assisted in creating the 1970 Novus Ordo Mass. For that matter, the changes to the Mass are very similar to what Cranmer (a Protestant) did in England a few centuries ago.

That having been said, the poor Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo Mass every Sunday (or every day!) are not automatically protestant. In fact, they are specifically seeking the Catholic elements, and merely put up with the protestant baggage. That does not make a protestant.

Now some "catholics" seek the protestant elements, try to push for even more rebellion from the Faith, and only tolerate the Catholic elements. Now THOSE are R oman Protestants.

I hope everything is a bit clearer now.

Matthew

Trinity · « **Reply #10 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:03:27 AM »

Chant, I think you are caught in the same bind Dawn and I are in---who goes to heaven. The problem is we know only Catholics go to heaven, yet we see others who obviously love and follow Jesus. That is too far over any of our heads.

The real problem with NO, in my opinion, are the invalid sacraments. Some of the people may be Catholic at heart, but they are still feeding at a trough of husks, and no matter how sincere they are, they have to be imbibing Protestantism. Coming from almost 40 years in that unholy milieu I can vouch for that. One of my great sorrows is that I don't think I have enough time left to divest myself of those errors. They are so sneaky, I can't even discover them except by accident. What is the greater mercy? To tell them the truth of their situation or to reassure them that their hearts are in the right place? Well, in some ways their hearts aren't in the right place and can't be unless someone helps them get them there.

Matthew · « **Reply #11 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:11:31 AM »

The saints never minced words, but they were always charitable. That is my constant goal as well.

Yes, the Novus Ordo is dangerous to the Faith. I would be the last one to deny that. After all, that is why I attend an SSPX chapel -- because I would fear for my faith if I regularly attended the Novus Ordo. Am I any stronger than the millions of Catholics who lost the Faith after Vatican II? I certainly wouldn't put my soul on the line to test it.

Moreover, many of the sacraments are "doubtful" especially depending on the priest. The Church teaches that we must always choose a "sure" thing over a "doubtful" one, in the case of the Mass and Sacraments. Hence my patronage of the SSPX.

I just believe that we can (and should) be dignified and charitable while pointing out all the errors of Vatican II.

For that matter, we can be much more harsh on the errors (note that I never mince words) than we can be on the individuals who espouse those errors. Even so, I am not naive about bishops like Brown (in California) who has clearly lost the faith. Still, I wouldn't cuss and swear at him or anything. He is still alive, which means the "time of mercy" hasn't ended for him.

Going up to a Novus Ordo Catholic -- who has been brought up in that milieu, and who is only following their priest (a VERY CATHOLIC notion, by the way) -- and calling them a "stupid protestant" would not convert them. In fact, I bet if a person did that to 10,000,000 Novus Ordo Catholics, he would not convert even one of them.

Matthew

Trinity · « **Reply #12 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:29:46 AM »

"Stupid Protestant, " no; "Protestant," yes and that statement can be backed by lots of evidence. We are in the time of separation of the goats and the sheep. If one were to, in charity, bring the goatishness of the NO to the attention of the NO, some would leave, others would stay. It would just depend on what they are....in their hearts.

Dawn · « **Reply #13 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:30:01 AM »

I have always said that those who do not know the thruth in the Novus Ordo can not be held responsible. The punishment will be coming to those leaders of the Church who let their flock wander to the edge, and in many cases fall of the edge of the mountain.
I do not call them name, never have. I do use harsh language for the leaders of the Church both here in America, and in Rome. I guess the best statement for them is the are liars like their father before them.

Question, if Bishop Fellay agrees with Rome, and is taking into the fold, and thereby accepts the teachings of Vatican II (which even if he says, I am back but do not accept the average Joe in the pews will be scandalized into thinking SSPX accepts it they will not read anything about it.) Then where will you stand?

Believe me, I fully agree with Archbishop Lefebvre, I think Fellay is playing with fire.
I am not arguing just trying to see what like minded persons think.

Matthew · « **Reply #14 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:45:35 AM »

First of all, don't worry about arguing. Arguing is fine, even passionate arguing -- but I expect enough restraint to not spray bullets at anyone and everyone (especially in the Novus Ordo) especially since there ARE innocent victims of falsehood there, and some of them are objectively Catholic even if their Mass is less than so.

I will support the SSPX as long as they continue to defend the Faith as they have up till now.

Anything is possible in the future -- and I am a living human being, not a box in a warehouse. I will continue to exercise prudence, etc. and do what is right under the changing circuмstances.

P.S. Don't believe everything you hear with regards to Bishop Fellay. I have met him several times. He is more diplomatic than, say, Bishop Williamson, but they both defend the faith equally as far as I can tell. There are PLENTY of rumours though about "factions" in the SSPX, Bishop Fellay selling out, etc. and none of them are true. Some of these rumours come from the likes of "Father Moderator" and should be dismissed out of hand.

In Christ,

Matthew