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Author Topic: Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)  (Read 837 times)

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Offline LaramieHirsch

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Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
« on: January 19, 2013, 04:30:44 PM »
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  • I need to figure out what I'm gonna think of Eastern Christendom once and for all.  

    #  #  #

    Okay....so, I read this over at CAF:

    Quote
    Eastern Churches throughout history have accepted the primacy of the Bishop of Rome among the Patriarchs and even the universal episcopate, but that does not mean that anyone in the East would ever, or should ever, accept the idea of being in "submission" to the Pope. Nor does it mean that the Bishop of Rome has authority over the other Patriarchs and bishops, because that would be to conceive "authority" in a manner similar to the Gentiles, and Christ condemned that idea.



    Another phrase I read several times in regards to the Pope was "first among equals."  Is there supposed to be other popes...the patriarchs?

    Is the Church bigger than just Rome???


    ###

    I really ought to have this stuff answered, because more and more I've been encountering Eastern Christians (Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, or whatever they are [I dunno]).
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
    « Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 07:18:26 PM »
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  • Just plain wrong that answer is. Every Father of the Church said every other Church is in submission to the Chair of Peter, the See of Rome.
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
    « Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 09:09:58 PM »
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  • Catholic Answers is some kind of place...

    You can't recommend attending mass at SSPX chapel but you can argue the pro Jєωιѕн view and openly deny Christ and the boob of a moderator will show off his undertanding of Hebrew by saying "Baruch HaShem" to him.

    And then there is all the other posting...   :rolleyes:

    Offline Nishant

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    Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
    « Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 09:39:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: QVP
    Just plain wrong that answer is. Every Father of the Church said every other Church is in submission to the Chair of Peter, the See of Rome.


    Agreed.

    It's a common theme one finds in all the Fathers, Latin and Greek alike, showing this was unanimously believed in East and West alike. Thus, St.Ambrose ("Where Peter is, there is the Church"), St.Augustine, ("Number the Bishops from the See of Peter itself. This is the Rock against which the proud gates of hell shall not prevail"), St.Jerome (writing to Pope Damasus "I know this is the Rock on which the Church is built. He who eats the Lamb outside this House profanes"), St.Cyprian, ("If he should desert the Chair of Peter, on which the Church is founded, can he imagine that he is still in the Church?")

    Even earlier, we find the same doctrine in the second century Fathers like St.Ignatius (addressing the Roman Church as "The Church that presides over the brotherhood in love") and St.Irenaeus (about the same Roman Church, he says, "For with this Church every Church throughout the world must agree")
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
    « Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 12:46:51 PM »
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  • Speaking as an eastern rite Catholic, eastern Catholics believe that the pope is the infallible vicar of Christ with universal and ordinary jurisdiction over  the whole Church, not just the Latin Church.  The pope does not usually exercise this jurisdiction on a practical level in the eastern rites, leaving this to the respective patriarchs or other senior hierarchs, but he can.  The pope doesn't usually exercise this jurisdiction in the Latin Church either on a practical level. He can appoint the past of the Latin rite Church down the street, but he doesn't.  He leaves that the the local bishop.

    The jurisdiction and infallibility of the pope are not debatable points for Catholics.  Any eastern Catholic who does not see this is either ignorant and in need of instruction or heretical.  

    The Orthodox use the phrase "the first among equals".  That accurately describes what they think the Ecuмenical Patriarch is.  The would happily concede this title to the pope, along with the title Patriarch of the West which the current pope inexplicably eschews, if he would (from their perspective) just stop being a herisiarch and return to the True Faith.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Nishant

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    Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
    « Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 09:48:17 PM »
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  • Yes, but the "Orthodox" understanding of the matter is a novelty constructed after the fact, to avoid what was known always and everywhere that the Greek Church and Constantinople is entirely subject to the Apostolic See of Rome.

    Here is one the of great Greek Fathers of the Church in the seventh century, a champion of orthodoxy, always Catholic and always Roman, St.Maximus the confessor, explain the matter with a typical profundity, showing that the prerogatives of Rome as foundation of the universal Church are by divine institution and that the very divine promise precludes precisely the false claim of the Greeks.

    Quote
    How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from of old until now, as the elder of all the Churches under the sun, presides over all? Having surely received this canonically, as well from councils and the Apostles, as from the princes of the latter, and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues of synodical docuмents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate, even as in all these things all are equally subject to her according to sacerdotal law.

    The extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were to a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers according to what the six inspired and holy councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith.

    For from the coming down of the incarnate Word amongst us, all the Churches in every part of the world have held that greatest Church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that according to the promise of Christ our Saviour, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it has the keys of a right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High.

    The Apostolic see, which from the incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by all holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions, has received universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the holy Churches of God which are in the whole world — for with it the Word who is above the celestial powers binds and looses in heaven also.


    For his tireless defense of Roman orthodoxy, he was asked in spite, "Why do you love the Romans and hate the Greeks? He said, "I love the Greeks, we share the same language; but the Romans, we share the same faith". Then they cut out his tongue and put him to death. Today, even the separated Greeks venerate him as a Father of the Church. He is a perfect example of truth lived out in charity, full of knowledge and wisdom and full of sanctity and holiness as befits the Saints of God.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Need to figure out Eastern Christians (Catholics??)
    « Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 09:59:42 PM »
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  • Absolutely.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir